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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2019, 04:09:56 PM »
Nigel:


This is only a guess. 


The annotations on the 1921 Map were done by Cheney some time prior to the creation of the 1924 Map.


The 1924 Map reflects the implementation of those plans along with updates to the Cypress routing made between (a) the time of Cheney making the annotations and (b) November of 1924.


At that time, the Raynor work at Del Monte might not have been contemplated.  We know the annotations on the Del Monte Map were added at some point after it was printed, which was June of 1925.  Makes sense that it may have been later that year, and it corresponds with the July 1925 article that discusses Raynor's work in the future.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Nigel Islam

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2019, 04:30:32 PM »
Sven,


I completely agree with this line of thought. I feel the annotations have to be anytime in 1924 or early 1925 at the latest for that very reason. Especially since the "New" Del Monte was still being contemplated in 1927.


So if true this places the date for Cypress conception earlier than perhaps we had thought?




Sven Nilsen

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2019, 04:47:26 PM »
Sven,


I completely agree with this line of thought. I feel the annotations have to be anytime in 1924 or early 1925 at the latest for that very reason. Especially since the "New" Del Monte was still being contemplated in 1927.


So if true this places the date for Cypress conception earlier than perhaps we had thought?


With regard to the date of the conception of Cypress I don't think it changes the story that much.  We know the organization of the club was being reported on in the Spring of 1925, so it makes sense that it would have been in the works for a bit longer, with Raynor probably having done a preliminary routing on his 1923 or 1924 visit, perhaps at the same time that he did his first routing for MPCC. 


One of the great what-ifs of all time, imagine if Raynor hadn't passed away and MPCC Dunes, MPCC Shores, Cypress Point and two new courses at Del Monte had been built according to his plans and by his construction team. 


Somewhere, Tom Doak just threw up in his soup.


Sven


PS  - Do you have anything on him visiting the San Francisco area in 1917?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2019, 04:51:44 PM »
So with regards to Bret's second Del Monte course, what I'm unclear of is whether the Jack's family owned this land as well or just the land the Old Del Monte courses was on?


And why aren't either of these "New" Del Monte courses seen on the initial maps posted?


Nigel,


The Map of Del Monte links I posted above is from the Miss Lee Jacks file.  I am under the impression that this land was owned by Miss Lee Jacks and her sister Vida.  If you look below the photograph to the right on the link I posted, you can see which folder this map comes from. In the same folder there is another golf layout, but it's dated 1927 and it different than the one I linked to.


Bret

Nigel Islam

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2019, 05:12:41 PM »
Sven,


I completely agree with this line of thought. I feel the annotations have to be anytime in 1924 or early 1925 at the latest for that very reason. Especially since the "New" Del Monte was still being contemplated in 1927.


So if true this places the date for Cypress conception earlier than perhaps we had thought?


With regard to the date of the conception of Cypress I don't think it changes the story that much.  We know the organization of the club was being reported on in the Spring of 1925, so it makes sense that it would have been in the works for a bit longer, with Raynor probably having done a preliminary routing on his 1923 or 1924 visit, perhaps at the same time that he did his first routing for MPCC. 


One of the great what-ifs of all time, imagine if Raynor hadn't passed away and MPCC Dunes, MPCC Shores, Cypress Point and two new courses at Del Monte had been built according to his plans and by his construction team. 


Somewhere, Tom Doak just threw up in his soup.


Sven


PS  - Do you have anything on him visiting the San Francisco area in 1917?



Not anything in 1917.
He was there in March 1918, went back to New York for a wedding, and was at Lake Louise in 1918. His wife is then reported going to LA in 6/1918. Not sure if he went from Canada to LA or back to NY then LA.

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2020, 12:06:41 PM »

I recently came across this Map of Monterey dated 1921.  This map has a few annotations on it, but it looks very much like the 1921 map posted above. This is likely the map used by Cheney to overlay with roads and golf courses. You will notice only Pebble Beach and Del Monte Golf Links are included on the original.


Courtesy of the United States Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Frederick Law Olmsted National Historic Site.
Here is the map in more detail:

https://flic.kr/p/PF6sCx


Bret
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 12:30:29 PM by Bret Lawrence »

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2020, 12:16:36 PM »


Coincidentally,  when I looked for maps to coincide with the maps Sven posted, I came across this map in the Olmsted Archives:  The only reason I clicked on it was because it looked like another Douglas Howard map, I couldn't see the layouts until I enlarged the picture. I wonder if this was Raynor's plan for Del Monte?


https://flic.kr/p/ZR57kZ


Bret


Just to follow up:
This letter from the Olmsted Archives confirms the link above is in fact Seth Raynor's 36-hole routing for Del Monte Golf Links.





Olmsted Associates. Olmsted Associates Records: Job Files, -1971; Files: 8020; Jacks, Lee, Margaret, and Vida; Monterey, Calif.; 1925 to 1926.  Manuscript/Mixed Material. Library of Congress.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 12:40:38 PM by Bret Lawrence »

Nigel Islam

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2020, 11:00:30 AM »
I want to bump this thread as I believe our own Sven is going to be doing a podcast for the Society of Golf Historians podcast regarding these maps. Looking forward to it!

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2020, 11:35:06 AM »
I want to bump this thread as I believe our own Sven is going to be doing a podcast for the Society of Golf Historians podcast regarding these maps. Looking forward to it!


Stay safe my front line working friend!!!

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2020, 01:03:44 PM »
Thank you John.  I have been proud of your input on the Corona thread.


Hopefully Bret Lawrence will be joining me on the podcast.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Nigel Islam

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2020, 03:28:21 PM »
I want to bump this thread as I believe our own Sven is going to be doing a podcast for the Society of Golf Historians podcast regarding these maps. Looking forward to it!


Stay safe my front line working friend!!!


Thanks JK. Its been a little slow in house thus far. No fever yet! Akin to a 12 week long Tornado Warning where you are just waiting for it to pass. Hope all is well with you.

Nigel Islam

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2020, 03:32:05 PM »
Thank you John.  I have been proud of your input on the Corona thread.


Hopefully Bret Lawrence will be joining me on the podcast.


Sven, I hope so too. Anthony and I were really trying to convince him. It should be excellent with both of you on there. I just re read this whole thread, and apart from me making some silly statements this was as good a three page discussion as I have seen here.


Not to steal your podcast thunder, but do you still feel as if the map was made in 1921 and CPC, MPCC were annotated at some point after?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2020, 11:21:12 AM »

Nigel:

The 1921 Map was made (or printed) in 1921.  We're pretty sure the annotations were made at a later date most likely by Charles H. Cheney.  I have yet to find a copy of the original 1921 Map without annotations.


The 1924 Map was made (or printed) in 1924.  There's a very good chance there are annotations on this map as well, which most likely coincide with the 9/30/25 date which appears to have been added below the signature and date from the mapmaker.  Finding an original version of this map as well would be very helpful.


Bret and I are working on trying to find as much information as we can on Charles H. Cheney.  We both independently have found letters between folks from the Morse concern, the Olmsted firm and Cheney discussing the initial concept of a planning effort at Monterey.  One of those letters has a version of the 1921 map (a very similar map, but I don't think the exact same map) being transmitted from one party to the other in 1923.


Based on the communications with Cheney, his annotations on the 1921 Map would most likely have been added some time after 1923.


Still digging, hopefully more to follow.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2020, 11:30:46 AM »
For those that are interested, here is the podcast Bret and I recorded for TalkinGolf History.


https://talkingolf.fireside.fm/37



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Foley

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2020, 02:35:20 PM »

With regard to the date of the conception of Cypress I don't think it changes the story that much.  We know the organization of the club was being reported on in the Spring of 1925, so it makes sense that it would have been in the works for a bit longer, with Raynor probably having done a preliminary routing on his 1923 or 1924 visit, perhaps at the same time that he did his first routing for MPCC. 



I think what is speculated here (and for many believed to be what occurred) makes sense. Would love to see something in Raynor's hand to reveal these details.


In the end though, wouldn't Cypress Point (given it's pedigree & historic significance)  know (and possibly have proof of) the answer and may not just want to unwrap this in public?

Integrity in the moment of choice

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2020, 02:46:03 PM »

In the end though, wouldn't Cypress Point (given it's pedigree & historic significance)  know (and possibly have proof of) the answer and may not just want to unwrap this in public?


John:


There is a very quiet and long-standing background debate running through the pages of this website.  Namely, who owns history?


I guess each of us have to answer that question for ourselves.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Adam G

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2020, 10:55:26 PM »
I will not claim to be an expert relative to many of the people here. I have also never been to Cypress Point and am not great at reading a topo map yet. So someone please correct me if I made any mistakes.


I was surprised that in the interesting podcast nobody talked about what Mackenzie's routing "fingerprints" are and whether any of the changes between the versions has have his fingerprints on them. I have readthat Mackenzie is known for repeatedly using an interesting landform as a "focal point" of his routings, which repeatedly use and return to the focal point landform. Think the hill near 7 green at Augusta.


I recall reading that the way Mackenzie used a prominent sand dune at Cypress is a prime example of one of his focal points. It is behind 6 and 11 greens (and near 3 green), houses the tee for 7, 10, and 12, and the green for 9. Others have said that this feature of the routing is what screams Mackenzie's name at Cypress. The Golf Digest "Every Hole at Cypress Point" video makes this dune's prominence and usage on each hole very clear.


Given this, it is interesting to notice that the use of the dune is very different in the 1921 relative to the 1924 maps. In particular, the 1924 map looks much more like a Mackenzie routing. The dune is not as clear in the topo lines on the 1921 map, but it looks like the 10th hole (a par 3 or short par 4?) is played over the dune and the 11th tee is playing off of it. That dune is not used repeatedly as a focal point of the routing. But in the 1924 routing, you can see the short par 4 9th played into a green set on the dune, the 10th played off the dune, the 11th played to a green set into the dune, and the 12th played back off of it. The 3rd green is also moved towards the base of it relative to the 1921 map. The main difference between the 1924 map and Cypress as built is that the course uses that dune even more than the 1924 map, as the dune backs the 6th green and is used for the teeing ground for the par 3 7th which plays to the east. It thus seems to me that the use of that dune in the 1924 maps has the hallmarks of a Mackenzie routing while the 1921 map does not.


Curious what people think of this observation.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 10:57:33 PM by Adam Guren »

Matthew Delahunty

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2024, 01:43:56 AM »
I saw this thread a few days ago and decided to do some digging.  I remember listening to the podcast on Talkin Golf History a few years ago.
I am based in Melbourne, Australia and in the course of researching the sandbelt courses I have come across some very useful maps and subdivision drawings.  From experience, I can say that often subdivisional maps are regularly updated.  I found an 1850s survey map of the sandbelt region which has annotations up until the 1980s.
I’ve looked at some of the available online material from Monterey County and I believe that the dates of the additions to the “Cheney” Map and the “1924 Map” fall within a certain timeframe.

The map draftsman
Douglas Howard was a resident of Pacific Grove and work for the Pacific Improvement Company prior to its liquidation in 1919.  The 1920 Census recorded that he worked for the Monterey County Water Works which was owned by the Del Monte Properties Company.  In the 1930 Census his industry of occupation was “Street Paring”.
The Cheney Map and the unannotated 1921 Map, the 1924 Map and the 1928 Map all have the same typeface and the 1924 and 1928 Maps indicate they were prepared by DMP Co.  It appears that Howard drafted the 1921 map (using the US Topographical map as his base) to record the properties laid out in the Pebble Beach subdivision, as a kind of master plan.  Sometime later this was overlaid by street layouts for the Monterey Peninsula Country Club subdivision, the Carmel Woods subdivision and some smaller subdivisions.  Those street layouts were most likely added after the surveys of those subdivisions were completed.
I suspect they were added by Howard (or someone else within DMP Co) rather than Cheney, and that Cheney coloured in the streets.

Cheney
In 1923 DMP approached the Olmsted Brothers in relation to a proposal to prepare a Regional Plan for the Monterey Peninsula.  The Olmsted Brothers provided a quote and recommended Charles Cheney as the city planning consultant.  The proposal for such a plan required the agreement of all three townships (Pacific Grove, Monterey and Carmel) and it appears that the costs were considered excessive.  The proposal did not proceed.
However, in March 1926 the City of Monterey engaged the Olmsted Brothers and Cheney to prepare a zoning and street plan and parks plan.  The terms of Cheney’s involvement included that “he was not to do strictly engineering work such as surveying, contract drawings and specifications” but the City of Monterey would provide him with all surveys and maps, engineering drawings and data as he required.
Cheney completed his zoning and street plan, and the Olmsted Brothers the parks plan, in December 1926.
Cheney’s annotations on the Cheney Map include a dashed yellow line showing a proposed route for what is now known as the Holman Highway between Pacific Grove and Carmel.  This was first proposed in late 1923 but met with opposition (including from DMP Co. as it passed over DMP’s land).  The highway was approved in 1928 after rights of way were given by DMP Co, the US Military (for carriageway over part of the Presidio) and another landowner.

Narrowing the dates
The survey plans for the MPCC subdivision were filed with the Monterey Country Recorder in March 1925.  We know that Raynor was on site and prepared the MPCC Dunes course layout in 1924 so its highly likely the routing of MPCC and the street plans were added at that time.
The key to ascertaining when the Cypress Point routing was added to the Cheney Plan lies in three survey plans held by Monterey County.  The unannotated 1921 Map shows the original location of Seventeen Mile Drive which ran along the coast where the 15th, 16th and 17th holes now play.  The Drive must have been moved in order to accommodate holes 15 to 18.  It was also moved closer to the ocean to accommodate the 13th and 14th holes.  Samuel Morse later confirmed this in a letter in December 1927
In the attached extract of the Cheney Map I have coloured the original route in red.  Cheney or someone else has coloured the revised route in blue.  The key part of the route to highlight is that in the green box.  The rerouting of this portion of the Seventeen Mile Drive affected plots of land either side of the Drive that had been sold to James Shewan several years earlier.  (The rerouting of the Drive also allowed the creation of 4 ocean front parcels of land, one of which was bought by Marion Hollins).  There was a survey lodged in respect the changes to this portion of the Drive, filed with the Country Recorder on 20 February 1925.  Additionally, surveys relating to the subdivision created for the Monterey Peninsula Country Club were filed on 4 May 2025.




In my opinion, this is strong evidence to support the theory that the golf course routing on the Cheney Map and the rerouting changes to Seventeen Mile Drive were added in or about early to mid 1925.  This is no evidence that the routing which was added to the map was Raynor’s but the addition correlates with Raynor being on site at MPCC in late 1924 to finalise the Shore Course routing.  It is certainly a possibility that, at the same time as he was at MPCC, he prepared a preliminary routing for CPC.  Although it is impossible to tell from a “stick and ball” addition to the map (likely to have been drawn by Howard or someone else within DMP Co), the routing would appear to be very rudimentary so that, if it was based on a Raynor routing, that routing was likely to be as a preliminary guide only to ascertain the land needed for a course until firmer arrangements could be developed for the establishment of a club. 
The 1924 map incorporates the rerouting of Seventeen Mile Drive and has a different routing for CPC.  It also appears to show an eastern boundary for the course.  This map can be dated by the following surveys:
  • 1.      A survey filed with the Country Recorder on 15 October 1926 containing the network of streets for the proposed subdivision immediately north of the course; and
  • 2.      A survey filed with the County Recorder on 29 March 1927 which Is a survey of Drakes Road which borders the course to the east. 




The streets in the proposed subdivision to the north are marked in the 1924 Map but Drakes Road is not.  The 1928 Map contains Drakes Road.  It is likely that the surveys relating to the proposed northern subdivision and Drakes Road were finalised after the course was routed (close to final routing) and the boundaries were determined.
In my opinion, the course routing on the 1924 Map was added in or about late 1926 and it is Mackenzie’s routing (probably a preliminary routing which was finalised when he returned in 1927).  The 1928 Map and a later 1938 Survey Map lodged with the County Recorder did not contain an updated routing schematic of the course.


Of course, someone within or close to the Club could reveal what the Club holds in relation to Raynor's involvement and put everyone here out of their misery!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2024, 01:50:26 AM by Matthew Delahunty »

Jackson C

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at?
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2024, 11:38:10 AM »
I will not claim to be an expert relative to many of the people here. I have also never been to Cypress Point and am not great at reading a topo map yet. So someone please correct me if I made any mistakes.


I was surprised that in the interesting podcast nobody talked about what Mackenzie's routing "fingerprints" are and whether any of the changes between the versions has have his fingerprints on them. I have readthat Mackenzie is known for repeatedly using an interesting landform as a "focal point" of his routings, which repeatedly use and return to the focal point landform. Think the hill near 7 green at Augusta.


I recall reading that the way Mackenzie used a prominent sand dune at Cypress is a prime example of one of his focal points. It is behind 6 and 11 greens (and near 3 green), houses the tee for 7, 10, and 12, and the green for 9. Others have said that this feature of the routing is what screams Mackenzie's name at Cypress. The Golf Digest "Every Hole at Cypress Point" video makes this dune's prominence and usage on each hole very clear.


Given this, it is interesting to notice that the use of the dune is very different in the 1921 relative to the 1924 maps. In particular, the 1924 map looks much more like a Mackenzie routing. The dune is not as clear in the topo lines on the 1921 map, but it looks like the 10th hole (a par 3 or short par 4?) is played over the dune and the 11th tee is playing off of it. That dune is not used repeatedly as a focal point of the routing. But in the 1924 routing, you can see the short par 4 9th played into a green set on the dune, the 10th played off the dune, the 11th played to a green set into the dune, and the 12th played back off of it. The 3rd green is also moved towards the base of it relative to the 1921 map. The main difference between the 1924 map and Cypress as built is that the course uses that dune even more than the 1924 map, as the dune backs the 6th green and is used for the teeing ground for the par 3 7th which plays to the east. It thus seems to me that the use of that dune in the 1924 maps has the hallmarks of a Mackenzie routing while the 1921 map does not.


Curious what people think of this observation.


Its a great observation and I agree it tends to show its a Mackenzie routing.  That portion of the routing (sand dune feature) is the most distinctive (other than 15-17), and it looks and feels like something Mackenzie would embrace and make full use of.

"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

Matthew Delahunty

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Re: Monterey Peninsula Area Maps - What are we looking at? New
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2024, 09:25:42 PM »
When I was doing research for my post above, I came across this photo of Cypress Point in 1910 in black and white.  I colourised it.  You can see how those travelling on 17 Mile Drive could follow the side tracks right out onto the point. 


« Last Edit: October 31, 2024, 11:13:00 PM by Matthew Delahunty »

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