[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,


It's interesting that Pebble Beach is not labelled in Cheneys handwriting.  Cypress, Shore, Dunes and Del Monte are written on there by Cheney, but Pebble is not.  There are also no yellow lines indicating Pebble Beach as a "golf links" with respect to Cheneys key.


Bret

Bret:


If you look at the close-ups of Cypress and Pebble, do the routing lines look different to you?  Almost like the Pebble lines are original to the map and the Cypress lines were added later?


Sven

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


I think you might be right.  It's not a huge difference, but when you compare the Cypress and Pebble routings, Pebble looks miniature in comparison. I also feel like I can read a few numbers on Cypress, but nothing on Pebble.


Bret

[Nigel Islam]

So if the Pebble lines were original and the rest of the lines added later then look at "Monterey Peninsula CC" on the map. The font for this is different than the rest of the font on the map. If this was stamped on there (?) could the map actually be from 1921?


Also it's interesting they used the polo field as an airstrip too. This is pre Howard Hughes.


Finally if the map itself were actually from 1921 with more recent writings I'm having a hard time reconciling the "1928" rendition of Pebble with 18 as a par 4. And I'm realizing that maybe I should just delete this entire roundabout post......

[Sven Nilsen]

A few questions that might help narrow down some dates.


1.  When exactly did Marion Hollins move to California and take up her role with Del Monte (in 1922 she was occupied with the construction of Women's National at Glen Head)? 


2.  Was Cypress truly her idea, or was the idea of the course already in play before she joined Morse's concern?


3.  When did Charles Cheney start working on plans for the residential layout of the Monterey Peninsula?


4.  What does the unmarked version of the 1921 Map look like.


As an aside, one of the more heralded books on MacKenzie notes the following:


"The real impetus for Dr. MacKenzie's trip to America in 1926 was Robert Hunter's interest in the land that would become Cypress Point Club."


Seeing as MacKenzie departed for the US on Jan. 13, 1926, and Seth Raynor was still alive and by all accounts still the architect of record for Cypress Point, I don't see how the above statement holds any water.  The tragic loss of Raynor at the early age of 51 must have been a blow to Hollins and the rest of the founders of the club.  The fortuitous arrival of MacKenzie in California right at that time almost strikes one as divine intervention, but it seems inconceivable that Cypress was in any way on MacKenzie's radar when he embarked for these shores.


One lingering question I have on the transition from Raynor to MacKenzie/Hunter is who would have built the course if Raynor had survived?  From a timing perspective, we know Raynor had planned the Dunes course at MPCC and construction was underway as early as the Fall of 1925.  I don't know who Raynor had on the ground at the Dunes course, but I suspect the same team would have continued the work on the Shores course and at Cypress.


Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

So if the Pebble lines were original and the rest of the lines added later then look at "Monterey Peninsula CC" on the map. The font for this is different than the rest of the font on the map. If this was stamped on there (?) could the map actually be from 1921?

Also it's interesting they used the polo field as an airstrip too. This is pre Howard Hughes.

Nigel:


The more I look at that 1921 Map, the more fascinating it becomes.  The Cheney annotations themselves are quizzical, as it seems like this was almost a sketchpad, or a worksheet for his planning.  I'd love to see what that map looked like before he added notes.  Are the road plans around MPCC his addition?  Was he basically plotting out all of the individual lots around Cypress, or were those lines (lines that don't really appear in any other areas) already on the map?  Were the houses marked around Pebble and Cypress his addition (again the only place these markings appear), or were they original?


I've reached out to someone who might have some answers on Cheney.  We'll see what pops up.


Sven

[Nigel Islam]

The answer to who was building Raynor's course is Joseph Mayo who built Waialae, Mid Pacific, both MPCC courses (at least until they suspended work on Shore and Mid Pacific.) I'm trying to tie Mayo to Cypress, but obviously he had a big hand in the late 1920s changes to Pebble as well. Obviously Morse thought highly of him.


Did MacKenzie make two trips to the area, one before and one after Raynor's death? I was under the impression that he brought to California for Meadow Club by Hunter. Maybe he was called back semi emergently by a frantic Hollins? Pure speculation of course.


Remember Raynor was in California
July 1923
June 1924
Summer 1925
December 1925 (technically twice)
His presence was definitely there. I think MPCC was conceived by at least mid 1924 and certainly a go by November 1924.

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is a November 1924 Golf Illustrated article mentioning the two Monterey Courses , but no mention of Cypress or Hollins.

[Nigel Islam]

So if the Pebble lines were original and the rest of the lines added later then look at "Monterey Peninsula CC" on the map. The font for this is different than the rest of the font on the map. If this was stamped on there (?) could the map actually be from 1921?

Also it's interesting they used the polo field as an airstrip too. This is pre Howard Hughes.

Nigel:


The more I look at that 1921 Map, the more fascinating it becomes.  The Cheney annotations themselves are quizzical, as it seems like this was almost a sketchpad, or a worksheet for his planning.  I'd love to see what that map looked like before he added notes.  Are the road plans around MPCC his addition?  Was he basically plotting out all of the individual lots around Cypress, or were those lines (lines that don't really appear in any other areas) already on the map?  Were the houses marked around Pebble and Cypress his addition (again the only place these markings appear), or were they original?


I've reached out to someone who might have some answers on Cheney.  We'll see what pops up.


Sven

I wasn't kidding when I told you this was an incredible find. There are all kinds of questions about the area. Fowler was there in 1922, but lots of changes were made to Pebble in 1923 as well. I think it's possible it could be all Fowler, but could it have been someone else? I'm not sure Fowler ever came back to the US after 1922.

[Bret Lawrence]

This article is from July 1925 Golf Illustrated and does mention Cypress and Hollins:

[Sven Nilsen]

There's a version of the 1921 Map available from the Stanford Digital Repository that has a better resolution than the one I linked to in the first post - https://purl.stanford.edu/ty688qh9496

Here are the closeups of each course.

Del Monte -



Pebble Beach -



MPCC -



Cypress -

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


Those maps are much clearer. Thank you.


Here is a July 1925 Canadian Golfer article explaining where Raynor was at in the construction and design process with respect to Monterey Peninsula Country Club.





Bret

[Marty Bonnar]

Curiouser and curiouser:

[Nigel Islam]

Sven,


Those maps are much clearer. Thank you.


Here is a July 1925 Canadian Golfer article explaining where Raynor was at in the construction and design process with respect to Monterey Peninsula Country Club.





Bret

Bret,


I was wondering how long it would be before you let the cat out of the bag for the SECOND Del Monte course!


Hollins started coming to California in 1921, and by 1923 she was spending significant time at Pebble Beach.

[Sven Nilsen]

And we're now further down the rabbit hole.

A anonymous party forwarded on links to another map, this one with a date of Nov. 1924, which can be found here:

https://img.raremaps.com/xlarge/18935.jpg

The images are posted below.

Here is the analysis from that anonymous party:

Comparing the two maps, both course maps are different. A few main differences . . .

PB: 3 was drawn across the road with a dogleg, 18 was a par 4. Also the road through the property is in a different position, and some of the property lines have changed significantly  around the clubhouse.   

CP: Road is gone, 2 not a dogleg then a dogleg, 3 different angle (In 1921 version it looks like it is in the development lots), 4 further south and east on 1921 map, 5-7 significantly different, and in 1921 parts of 4-7 are drawn in part over the boundary on the 1924 map, 18th tee on the island in 1924, etc.  (note that these earlier maps all have 13 as a par 3.)

I am inclined to believe that the map marked 1921 was created before the one marked 1924, and t was likely created in 1921. 

So the question is, which, if any, of the golf courses on the maps when they were published. 
- For the 1924 maps (CP and PB), I think the answer is yes, it looks that way.  The roads and borders have been adjusted to accommodate the courses.
- For the 1921 map, harder to say for sure, but perhaps not for at least the courses that didn’t exist yet. The drawing style is very similar, but note that for PB and DM, there are circles denoting the turn in the doglegs, while on CP and MP there are none.  Also note how the on CP there is a disregard for the map features.  For example a few holes are through lots, and the first green in right on the road.  Also the scale is pretty off on 4-7, where the course extends much further east on the map that it ended up as if it wasn’t really drawn with much scale in mind.



Closeup of Date -



Pebble -



Cypress -

[Sven Nilsen]

Curiouser and curiouser:

Care to expound?  The MacKenzie timeline notes Mac and Hunter received the commission in Feb. of 1926.

[Sven Nilsen]

It has been pointed out that both the 1921 and 1924 maps were created by the same mapmaker - Douglas D. Howard.


Here's a close-up from the 1921 Map noting his name and a date of Aug. 1921.

[Marty Bonnar]

Hi Sven,
This is from the inner cover of the Geoff Shac book. There’s also a couple of pertinent comments in the ‘Planning and Construction’ Chapter which I’ll transcribe when I have a mo.
Cheers,
F.

[Nigel Islam]

I think conventional wisdom is that MacKenzie did come up with a routing in February of 1926 right?

[Sven Nilsen]

I think conventional wisdom is that MacKenzie did come up with a routing in February of 1926 right?

If he did before that date, that would be news.

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is a photo from Golf Illustrated., December 1925 showing the staked out site of the 18th tee, according to the plans they had at the time.

[Nigel Islam]

The bridge idea lasted for a few more years too. There is a sketch of the bridge dated October of 1931 with MacKenzie's name on it. I think it had to be part of Raynor's routing though given the picture from Golf Illustrated above.

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


Those maps are much clearer. Thank you.


Here is a July 1925 Canadian Golfer article explaining where Raynor was at in the construction and design process with respect to Monterey Peninsula Country Club.





Bret

Bret,


I was wondering how long it would be before you let the cat out of the bag for the SECOND Del Monte course!


Hollins started coming to California in 1921, and by 1923 she was spending significant time at Pebble Beach.

Nigel,


That cat has been sleeping for 95 years in the Canadian Golfer, what's a few more days?


Coincidentally,  when I looked for maps to coincide with the maps Sven posted, I came across this map in the Olmsted Archives:  The only reason I clicked on it was because it looked like another Douglas Howard map, I couldn't see the layouts until I enlarged the picture. I wonder if this was Raynor's plan for Del Monte?


https://flic.kr/p/ZR57kZ


Bret

[Marty Bonnar]

Hi Sven,
This is from the inner cover of the Geoff Shac book. There’s also a couple of pertinent comments in the ‘Planning and Construction’ Chapter which I’ll transcribe when I have a mo.
Cheers,
F.

Here’s those comments:
“Cypress Point was routed by MacKenzie on two extended trips: first in February of 1926 when he was commissioned to take over for Seth Raynor and again in 1927 after he had returned from his round the world tour”.
“Mackenzie’s initial routing featured several twists that did not appear in the final layout. A double fairway option for the par 5 second hole was scrapped. The sixth was laid out as a par three and the seventh as a par four”.


There’s more about some of the other issues.
Cheers,
F.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,


Those maps are much clearer. Thank you.


Here is a July 1925 Canadian Golfer article explaining where Raynor was at in the construction and design process with respect to Monterey Peninsula Country Club.





Bret

Bret,


I was wondering how long it would be before you let the cat out of the bag for the SECOND Del Monte course!


Hollins started coming to California in 1921, and by 1923 she was spending significant time at Pebble Beach.

Nigel,


That cat has been sleeping for 95 years in the Canadian Golfer, what's a few more days?


Coincidentally,  when I looked for maps to coincide with the maps Sven posted, I came across this map in the Olmsted Archives:  The only reason I clicked on it was because it looked like another Douglas Howard map, I couldn't see the layouts until I enlarged the picture. I wonder if this was Raynor's plan for Del Monte?


https://flic.kr/p/ZR57kZ


Bret

Nice.  The hits just keep on rolling.

[Nigel Islam]

So with regards to Bret's second Del Monte course, what I'm unclear of is whether the Jack's family owned this land as well or just the land the Old Del Monte courses was on?


And why aren't either of these "New" Del Monte courses seen on the initial maps posted?

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