St. Louis in GD Top 200

[Bill Shamleffer]

I do not mean to make too much about course rankings, but I found this interesting in looking at the GD Top 100/200 courses list this past weekend.


Never before ranked St Louis C.C. is now at #157.  Meanwhile, Bellerive, fresh after hosting the PGA Championship, drops from 118 down to 144.


And on a similar vein with St. Louis C.C., Camargo Club (here in Cincinnati) climbed from #52 to #44, after previously being unranked in Top 100 for a decade.


I guess the impossible question to answer is how much did refinements to these courses impact the voters, and how much is due to changes in tastes, what to consider when analyzing these courses, and the makeup of the ranking group.


I always thought St Louis CC was the top course in town, and nothing has changed in my opinion on this matter.
But as I have gotten older, I have developed respect for what Bellerive is as a course, what it presents, and what it is trying to offer, challenge & test during a round of golf.


If I had to never play one of the two ever again, I would easily eliminate Bellerive.  But if I had the option of either only playing St.Louis, or of playing both throughout a year, I would probably lean towards a 8/2 ratio in favor of St. Louis CC.
Although, if I was a low single digit handicapper, I may want that ratio to be 5/5.


Living in Cincinnati for 4+ years now, Camargo is easily the best course in town.
(Acknowledging the extreme subjectivity of even categorizing the "quality" of a golf course's architecture, etc.)

[Tom_Doak]

I would guess Camargo was off the list for a while because it didn't have a quorum of panelist votes - 35 or whatever the minimum number is.  St. Louis CC might never have had that many until panelists descended on town for the PGA.


I would guess that Raynor courses are rising in the rankings generally because new panelists who are still learning about golf architecture can identify with them, and explain what a Redan or a Biarritz is to their friends.  Plus, the GOLF DIGEST formula for greatness doesn't give any points for being different, as far as I can remember.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Bellerive's greens have been in horrible shape for the past 2 year following a Sub Air problem. They kept them like apron to stay alive for the PGA and even then had them very slow for the tournament. Ironically I played it a month after the PGA and they were excellent, letting them play short since they're getting ready to redo them all.

St. Louis on the other hand has had tree removal and frequent top dressing to the fairways to make the bent play firmer. Its much better. I think it was the only private CBM that wasn't ranked in some manner. IMO its hard to hold Piping Rock and The Creek (aside from the setting) in such high regard and overlook SLCC.

[Gary Sato]

If memory serves me correct it was in the top 100 years ago? I'm surprised it's at number 157.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I don't think it was ever top 100 by Golf Digest, but it's consistently been ranked in the Golfweek Classic top 100. Not sure about Golf Magazine.

[Bill Shamleffer]

If memory serves me correct it was in the top 100 years ago? I'm surprised it's at number 157.

Gary:

You are correct.  Per Golf Digest (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bellerive-country-club, Bellerive was in their Topp 100 rnaking from 1966-2004.  It was then unranked, until 2015, when it was in their 2nd 100 rankings.

Per GD, 22 courses have been in every Top 100 list.  It appears that Inverness is currently the highest ranked at 88 of those 22.  In my review of the 1-87 courses 35 were built after 1966.  So 52 courses that existed in 1966 that did not make the GD original Top 100 are now ranked above Inverness.  I assume quite a few of those were courses that had not been seen be enough voters and/or had little prior national exposure, and those were overlooked.


My favorite item in the article was the 5 shortest courses - Cypress Pointe, Crystal Downs, Essex County Club, Myopia Hunt, & The Valley Club of Montecito.

You can sentence me to be barred for life from ever playing the other 195 courses, and in exchange get to play these other five 1x year for life and I would accept that in a second.

Although, unlike any other course on that list, does not Augusta National only allow Master's contestants to play the championship tees, and thus all other play is limited to the members tees of 6,365 yards?


Finally, In Ron Whitten's intro, he references the book SAND AND GOLF: HOW TERRAIN SHAPES THE GAME, by George Waters, and then states that it is "... one of the many books on our recommended reading lists for Golf Digest's nearly 1,500 course rating panelist."

Does anyone know what books are on the full list, and can they provide that complete list?

[Jim Franklin]

I know Camargo did not have enough panelist visit to qualify. Since the number of panelist visits is now up to 75 over a ten year period, I will be curious to see which courses start falling off again.

And St Louis CC is my course of choice in St Louis as well. I play in Bellerive member guest every year and 2018 was the worst year I recall. I know they are redoing the greens again this year at some point. My buddy said the course played great after the PGA though.

[Tommy Williamsen]

If memory serves me correct it was in the top 100 years ago? I'm surprised it's at number 157.

Gary:

You are correct.  Per Golf Digest (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bellerive-country-club, Bellerive was in their Topp 100 rnaking from 1966-2004.  It was then unranked, until 2015, when it was in their 2nd 100 rankings.

Per GD, 22 courses have been in every Top 100 list.  It appears that Inverness is currently the highest ranked at 88 of those 22.  In my review of the 1-87 courses 35 were built after 1966.  So 52 courses that existed in 1966 that did not make the GD original Top 100 are now ranked above Inverness.  I assume quite a few of those were courses that had not been seen be enough voters and/or had little prior national exposure, and those were overlooked.


My favorite item in the article was the 5 shortest courses - Cypress Pointe, Crystal Downs, Essex County Club, Myopia Hunt, & The Valley Club of Montecito.

You can sentence me to be barred for life from ever playing the other 195 courses, and in exchange get to play these other five 1x year for life and I would accept that in a second.

Although, unlike any other course on that list, does not Augusta National only allow Master's contestants to play the championship tees, and thus all other play is limited to the members tees of 6,365 yards?


Finally, In Ron Whitten's intro, he references the book SAND AND GOLF: HOW TERRAIN SHAPES THE GAME, by George Waters, and then states that it is "... one of the many books on our recommended reading lists for Golf Digest's nearly 1,500 course rating panelist."

Does anyone know what books are on the full list, and can they provide that complete list?

Bill, the list contains about seventy books. It lists all the one you'd suspect.
I could play those short five courses and love them, but there are so many good courses on the rest of the list I couldn't limit myself like that.

[Nigel Islam]

SLCC is a fine course, and certainly represents 157 well. St. Louis has some good golf as my buddy Hillenbrand can attest, but I think St. Louis CC sits at the head of the class.

[Buck Wolter]

Great golf course -- all-world front 9, 5 very good par 3's, fun par 5's, alps finisher. Tough place to play let alone grow bentgrass in July/August but can't think of a better place to spend a fall day. I get the feeling they could care less about ratings and even less about raters -- comfortable with their CBM museum piece. Play it if you get a chance.