Why does the southeast have relatively fewer great courses than the north?

[Peter Pallotta]

I can't imagine any writer with a staff job back in the day ever wanting to venture too far out of Manhattan, except to escape to Long Island in the summer. Heck, if Carson hadn't moved the Tonight Show to Los Angeles, there wouldn't be many great courses on the West Coast either. Too bad for SE courses that Ted Turner liked sailing instead of golf

[V. Kmetz]

Also we were recovering from the War of Northern Agression and could not build golf courses on the South while some of the classics were being built in the North.

"...Who can take a nothing day, and suddenly make it all seem worthwhile..."


There's a lot of yucks in this passage, but stick to the "red clay" reason. 

[Jay Mickle]

Air conditioning. The South pre A/C did not have the draw that it does now. Pinehurst for all its greatness was abandoned during the summer. The Tufts family developers of Pinehurst took to the NC mountains where Donald Ross was enlisted to build Roaring Gap as a retreat from the stifling heat.
Atlanta, Charlotte and other major Soithern cities would not be what the are today without A/C

[Kalen Braley]

So I reviewed the GD top 100 list and categorized each course in one of the 4 traditional regions:

North East - 28
Mid West - 26
West - 24
South - 22

Seems fairly balanced, even if its still hard to consider places like Ohio and Michigan in the "Middle West", of which a fair amount of the MW courses were in those two states.  The most under represented places?  The South West and the western parts of the Mid West.

[George Pazin]

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that Pete Dye never designed a course as great as even the worst by CBM. It simply makes no logical sense.

Perhaps Mr. Dye designed courses that better suit your style of play.


I can't remember reading on here, have you played National or Shinnecock?

[George Pazin]

I really wanted to like Bulle Rock when I played it, but I can't think of a worse course for retired guys. It was just "heroic shot" after "heroic shot" ride to the next hole and start over. Then there is Pound Ridge GC...

Did you play the right tees?


Sorry, I'm looking for the vomiting emoji......


That's the question the rest of us hear when questioning St Pete.

[Tommy Williamsen]

So I reviewed the GD top 100 list and categorized each course in one of the 4 traditional regions:

North East - 28
Mid West - 26
West - 24
South - 22

Seems fairly balanced, even if its still hard to consider places like Ohio and Michigan in the "Middle West", of which a fair amount of the MW courses were in those two states.  The most under represented places?  The South West and the western parts of the Mid West.

If you are including ANGC then Ohio is northeast. If the Honors Club  then you must include Indiana, Michigan, and maybe Chicago.

[Kalen Braley]

Tommy,

This is the guide I used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_the_United_States

[Tommy Williamsen]

That makes for a pretty small geographical area for the northeast. It is almost like pitting NY&PA against the the entire south.

[Kalen Braley]

That makes for a pretty small geographical area for the northeast. It is almost like pitting NY&PA against the the entire south.

Tommy,

So if you include Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, West VA, Virginia, and Maryland as apart of the North East, which I certainly would as well..

That number goes from 28 to 42.

[Brian Ross]

So I reviewed the GD top 100 list and categorized each course in one of the 4 traditional regions:

North East - 28
Mid West - 26
West - 24
South - 22

Seems fairly balanced, even if its still hard to consider places like Ohio and Michigan in the "Middle West", of which a fair amount of the MW courses were in those two states.  The most under represented places?  The South West and the western parts of the Mid West.

Kalen,

I'm surprised by the parity between regions on your list, too. For comparison, though, here is the Golfweek Top 100 Classic Courses (pre-1960) list shown on a map. Here the difference is much more stark, and these tend to be the courses that get talked about the most, especially on here.

[Kalen Braley]

Brian,

If you mapped the GD top 100, it wouldn't look too terribly different. I did use the traditional definitions in my original post, which have always seemed odd geographically, but when you factor in population centers they don't seem as bad.

Outside of the immediate West Coast area there isn't a whole lotta people living West of the Mississippi River areas...

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that Pete Dye never designed a course as great as even the worst by CBM. It simply makes no logical sense.

Perhaps Mr. Dye designed courses that better suit your style of play.


I can't remember reading on here, have you played National or Shinnecock?

No, I have not played National or Shinnecock. Neither course fits my personal agenda.


As far as Dye goes, I live in Indiana. I have an obligation to play his courses.

[Mike Sweeney]

As far as Dye goes, I live in Indiana. I have an obligation to play his courses.

And yet you stay in hotels that buried his course!! It's official, you have taken "GCA Double Standard" to a new level!! 

[Mike Sweeney]

Did you play the right tees?


Sorry, I'm looking for the vomiting emoji......


That's the question the rest of us hear when questioning St Pete.

I dropped the back tee option long ago.


I have never liked Pete Dye golf courses and I really would like to play The Golf Club. [size=78%]Ignoring price, I was really disappointed by TPC Sawgrass and many others. [/size]


I will take Brian Silva all day long as the "Modern Seth Raynor". Brian addressed his flaws from his Geoffrey Cornish era, and created some really interesting original courses and re-designs.


Mountain Lake, Southampton GC, Cape Cod National, Red Tail...none of these will ever host a PGA event. The golf course architecture benefited from that!

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,


That's just a picture of the pool. I considered starting a thread about best resorts to hit the range and skip the course. Four Seasons Orlando may just be the ticket. I spent three hours each of the last couple of days enjoying all that is good about golf. $25 a day. The best deal at Disney.


Four Seasons on the range, Walmart on the tee.

[James Brown]

Mike Sweeney,


Getting a little off the topic, and probably not worth debate, but did you ever play the Dye and Fazio courses at Disney?


The Dye course was not his stereotypical product.  I actually admired it more than the Fazio design, as it represented a number of departures from the norm.  It was very low profile, was not reliant on length, had great variety in its holes, and like a few other Dye Courses (the original TPC Sawgrass and PGA Dye in Port St. Lucie) had almost no formal rough, instead had wide fairways that transitioned into pine straw or sandy waste.


On the other hand, though, the Fazio course did have lots of eye candy...so it had that going for it.


Keith.

I would agree.  The Dye course was very fun to play. 

[mike_beene]

The train systems of the 20 largest cities prove the point. Old traditional systems in Chicago, NY, Boston, Philly. Then the DC type later systems and the the light rail type Dallas ,LA,Portland type systems that feel like real estate cart courses.

[Mike_Young]

Also we were recovering from the War of Northern Agression and could not build golf courses on the South while some of the classics were being built in the North.

"...Who can take a nothing day, and suddenly make it all seem worthwhile..."


There's a lot of yucks in this passage, but stick to the "red clay" reason. 

VK,Happy new year...

[JESII]

Mike - could it be as simple as this is where the cool people are?

[Mike_Young]

Yes the coolest are in the SE...no doubt...

[JMEvensky]

Mike - could it be as simple as this is where the cool people are?

You can forget about a good table at Waffle House with that attitude.

[Kalen Braley]

If you only look at the top 25, the so-called cream of the crop.

Once again designating Michigan and Ohio as part of the "North East", you get this:

North East: 13
West: 5
South: 4
Mid West: 3

[Mike Hendren]

After we discovered how many Yankees joined Augusta National, a moratorium was placed on great new golf courses to stem the migration.


That’s what a lot of people were saying.

[Ken Moum]

Lots of nice thoughts, but I think people are missing a REALLY important factor.. none of the turfgrasses common in the home of golf do very well in the Southeast. 


So you had bermuda grass greens.



And Tifgreen wasn't released until 1956, and a whole lot of folks think it's still not such a great cultivar for putting on.


Add up how many of those highly ranked courses were built in the Golden Age, which ended way before 1956. turf grass HAS to be a factor.


K