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Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2019, 05:27:36 AM »
We've all got short memories. Jean Van de Velde's 8 footer for 7 to tie the 99 Open - after the 'dumb' second and the horrendous bounce off the grandstand and then the bricks on the edge of the burn back into a brutal lie on the opposite side of the burn.
+1 ..... and it was with a Claret Jug on the line.


Atb

Jim Nugent

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2019, 08:55:39 AM »
We've all got short memories. Jean Van de Velde's 8 footer for 7 to tie the 99 Open - after the 'dumb' second and the horrendous bounce off the grandstand and then the bricks on the edge of the burn back into a brutal lie on the opposite side of the burn.
Wasn't VV's first 'dumb' shot hitting driver off the tee?  i.e. he could hit an iron short of the first bern, another iron short of the second, and have a wedge to the green? 

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2019, 10:25:31 AM »
It was incredible to listen, as the entire announcing crew had not idea what the rule is for a ball that rolls into a hazard on its own.  A group of former players, analysts, rules experts, and producers decided he had made an eight, when he actually made seven.
It's sad that we have to give credit to Rickie for knowing how to drop from a penalty area onto a cart path and again from a penalty area without needing a Rules Official. Of course, then he goofed and said "I think I just get to replace it under the new Rules."

Many drops after balls enter a penalty area are on rather severe slopes. Perhaps a decision or rule change is in order allowing for a redrop or placement of the ball if after initially being at rest it then rolls back into the penalty area prior to the ball being addressed with intent to swing. I don’t think a double penalty is in keeping with equity of the situation. Glad Fowler was able to overcome his poor fortune.
No thanks.

It's a ball in play, and then in the penalty area. The Rules make an exception now if you've marked your ball on the putting green, but in the General Area it should be treated the same as any other ball in play. If Rickie had chipped it onto the bank initially, would anyone here doubt that he should require a penalty stroke to take his ball out of the water?

Whats the specific rule here, you're a rules maven right?  Doesn't this same rule say that if a squirrel or bird steals your ball and it ends up in the water or off course, you would also have to take a one stroke penalty and drop?
If it is known or virtually certain that an outside influence (including another player in stroke play or another ball) lifted or moved a player’s ball:


- There is no penalty, and
- The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).

This applies whether or not the player’s ball has been found.

If so, I would think its these kinds of things the rules bodies would want to have lee way on, seems punitive to punish the players for that, especially when its totally out of their control.  Or was this one applied differently because he dropped it there?
Leeway for what? A ball in play went into a penalty area. Fred Couples famous shot on 12 in 1992 at Augusta National… his ball staying up or falling in was equally "out of his control," and yet… that too would have been a penalty. Note that the penalty isn't for the ball going into the penalty area - you almost always have the option to play the ball as it lies. The penalty is for the relief you take.

A ball in play went into a penalty area.

Question for the folks who actually know the rules, could Ricky have had his caddie stand behind the ball in order to stop it if it began to roll?
No.

But there was also no time limit on when he had to place it. He could have marked the position, wandered around and checked out the green, and then placed it and fairly promptly played it if he desired. He didn't have to place it immediately and then walk around for awhile.

Haven't had a chance to dig into this one, but ultimately, the issue is where it ended up after it rolled from its previous spot. Could a player use his caddy (or lay down a piece of equipment) to insure that if the ball started rolling, it wouldn't end up back in the haz, er, penalty area?
That would be a penalty.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2019, 10:38:07 AM »
Eric,

I guess I'm confused by your last statement based on what i saw Sunday:

Quote
If it is known or virtually certain that an outside influence (including another player in stroke play or another ball) lifted or moved a player’s ball:- There is no penalty, and- The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).This applies whether or not the player’s ball has been found.
Couldn't this be deduced by process of elimination given that Rickie nor his caddie were anywhere near the ball when it rolled in?  It seemed very plausible to me a rain drop could have hit the ball and disturbed it enough to get it rolling.  Would this not be an outside agency?

Now if Ricky was addressing it or at least nearby, i would completely agree he could have moved it.

Chris Roselle

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2019, 11:42:58 AM »
Eric,

I guess I'm confused by your last statement based on what i saw Sunday:

Quote
If it is known or virtually certain that an outside influence (including another player in stroke play or another ball) lifted or moved a player’s ball:- There is no penalty, and- The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).This applies whether or not the player’s ball has been found.
Couldn't this be deduced by process of elimination given that Rickie nor his caddie were anywhere near the ball when it rolled in?  It seemed very plausible to me a rain drop could have hit the ball and disturbed it enough to get it rolling.  Would this not be an outside agency?

Now if Ricky was addressing it or at least nearby, i would completely agree he could have moved it.



Kalen, the answer to your question can be found in the definition of both Outside Influence and Natural Forces...Outside InfluenceAny of these people or things that can affect what happens to a player’s ball or equipment[/url][/i] or to the course[/url][/i]:[/size]Any person (including another player), except the player or his or her caddie[/url][/i] or the player’s partner[/url][/i] or opponent[/url][/i] or any of their caddies[/url][/i],
[/size][/font]
  • Any animal[/url][/i], and[/size][/font]
  • Any natural or artificial object or anything else (including another ball in motion), except for natural forces[/url][/i].[/size][/font]

  • Natural ForcesThe effects of nature such as wind, water or when something happens for no apparent reason because of the effects of gravity.

    If his ball was NOT moved by an animal/another person (not the player or his caddie)/any natural or artificial object it is deemed to have moved by natural forces/gravity. 

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2019, 12:03:01 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for the update, interesting they use "Outside influence", but leave mother nature out of that definition....

They certainly got the ruling right according to how the rules are written...but once again more inconsistency.  If it moves on the putting green due to Mother Nature, its no penalty and put it back to the original spot, but if it happens anywhere else, pray and hope for the best.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2019, 12:35:17 PM »
I guess I'm confused by your last statement based on what i saw Sunday:Couldn't this be deduced by process of elimination given that Rickie nor his caddie were anywhere near the ball when it rolled in?  It seemed very plausible to me a rain drop could have hit the ball and disturbed it enough to get it rolling.  Would this not be an outside agency?
Rain is not an outside influence, Calen. Says it right in the definition.

Thanks for the update, interesting they use "Outside influence", but leave mother nature out of that definition....
They didn't "leave mother nature out of the definition." The words "natural forces" link to this:


Natural Forces

The effects of nature such as wind, water or when something happens for no apparent reason because of the effects of gravity.

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions

They certainly got the ruling right according to how the rules are written...but once again more inconsistency.  If it moves on the putting green due to Mother Nature, its no penalty and put it back to the original spot, but if it happens anywhere else, pray and hope for the best.
We've had different Rules for the putting green for a long time now. They have their reasons.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 12:38:13 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2019, 01:03:22 PM »
When do tournament organizers use a drop zone? In this case dropping on a steep back with closely mown grass seems to ask gravity to act on the ball. Rickie could have replayed the shot, which in retrospect might have been better.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 01:28:25 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2019, 01:11:39 PM »
We do tournament organizers use a drop zone? In this case dropping on a steep back with closely mown grass seems to ask gravity to act on the ball. Rickie could have replayed the shot, which in retrospect might have been better.
Probably would have been yeah.

Or he could have waited until he was ready to play to drop the ball.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mike_Clayton

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2019, 01:53:40 PM »
We've all got short memories. Jean Van de Velde's 8 footer for 7 to tie the 99 Open - after the 'dumb' second and the horrendous bounce off the grandstand and then the bricks on the edge of the burn back into a brutal lie on the opposite side of the burn.
Wasn't VV's first 'dumb' shot hitting driver off the tee?  i.e. he could hit an iron short of the first bern, another iron short of the second, and have a wedge to the green?


Jim,


He could have but everyone else ever has hit driver off that tee.And from memory an iron off that tee isn't exactly uncomplicated. Even if he screwed the driver up, he could have dropped out and gone wedge, wedge, 2 putt to win

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2019, 02:22:50 PM »
I wonder how Sergio would have responded....


 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2019, 02:27:51 PM »
He could have but everyone else ever has hit driver off that tee.And from memory an iron off that tee isn't exactly uncomplicated. Even if he screwed the driver up, he could have dropped out and gone wedge, wedge, 2 putt to win
Right. VdV didn't "choke" so much as he had bad, bad, horrible luck.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mark Pearce

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2019, 02:46:38 PM »
He could have but everyone else ever has hit driver off that tee.And from memory an iron off that tee isn't exactly uncomplicated. Even if he screwed the driver up, he could have dropped out and gone wedge, wedge, 2 putt to win
Right. VdV didn't "choke" so much as he had bad, bad, horrible luck.
This.  He hit the ball over the burn and it bounced back in off a scaffolding pole in a stand.  If that goes anywhere else but in the water it's a straightforward bogey. 
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2019, 09:03:17 PM »
It's incredible that anyone could excuse what VdV did on the 18th. He hit several awful shots using zero course managenent.  It was nothing less than a choke  He got away away with terrible driving all day and it finally caught up with him.  That said, I am not sure he could reach the fairway on the day with an iron.


Ciao
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Mike_Clayton

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2019, 09:09:44 PM »
SeanA


Van De Velde hit the almost perfect second shot in the circumstances.
The only way to lose after the drive was to hit it OB left - which is really close - or leave it in the rough short of the burn.
So long as he was right of the pin and over the water he makes easy bogey all day.
One in a 1000 shots hits that stand, then the bricks and bounces over back over the water and into the hay.




Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2019, 09:41:25 PM »
SeanA


Van De Velde hit the almost perfect second shot in the circumstances.
The only way to lose after the drive was to hit it OB left - which is really close - or leave it in the rough short of the burn.
So long as he was right of the pin and over the water he makes easy bogey all day.
One in a 1000 shots hits that stand, then the bricks and bounces over back over the water and into the hay.


VdV could have wedged his second rather than hit a 4 iron. His ball must have been 15 yards right of the green. He could have wedged his third sideways back into the fairway. The man was given opportunities and he chose not to take them. The guy was lucky off the tee on 18 because he wasn't playing for the 17th fairway.  His drive got away from him and he nearly went in the water by the 17th tee. Sorry, you are not going to convince me his triple was down to bad luck.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2019, 11:37:45 AM »
I've gotta agree with Sean here.  He made three big mistakes,one small one, and one he thankfully avoided...

Mistake 1:  Driver off the tee.
Mistake 2:  Going for the green from the rough and bad angle instead of safe layup before the burn leaving a simple pitch on.
Mistake 3:  Trying to hit it over the burn with his 3rd shot from a nasty & deep lie.
Mistake 4:  Thankfully he avoided this one, but not after taking his shoes off and getting in the burn to maybe play it.  This alone shows his mind wasn't right by even considering this.
Mistake 5:  Putting his 5th shot in the bunker from such a short distance.

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2019, 11:49:18 AM »
From what little I've seen of Carnoustie, all of it on the tube, I'm not convinced there are any easy shots on the 18th.


What's interesting to me about VdV's thought process is, how different would the decisions have been if the tournament/TV situations not been present? Would a normal golfer, playing for money or honor, have done what he did? Obviously that golfer wouldn't be hitting it into the grandstands.


Then you have the mental gurus out there. They all, to a man, tell you to go with your original plan, your confident stroke. Going by how he'd played to that point, that would seem to be the driver. I'd guess many golfers, maybe even most golfers, maybe even ALL golfers, could tell you about a time they seemingly made all the right safe decisions and still got burned.


That's golf. I feel bad for Jean, and wish he had closed the deal. I lose sleep over things of much less significance than The Open, I hope he sleeps well at night.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2019, 11:52:48 AM »
I'm with Mike on this one: VdV was a product of poor luck more than anything else. His driver was fine, and his second shot was fine.

They weren't mistakes - he could make double and win outright. The only thing he had to really avoid was hitting it OB. Heck, he could hit it in the water twice and still make a double, but OB would put him back hitting the same shot again effectively two strokes worse, needing to "par" with the second ball.

Bad luck more than anything.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2019, 11:59:18 AM »
If there was a time for a caddie to pull a Tin Cup and snap the driver and 3 wood over his knee, this was it.  The 18th is not your garden variety finishing hole, its no doubt one of the toughest finishing holes in major history.

If there was ever a time for caution, on the 72nd hole of a major with a 3 stroke lead, this was also it. He did not heed and Karma bit him squarely in the ass.

P.S. For as much as it was a bad break to hit the stands and go back over the burn, it could have just as easily went into the burn right then. I just re-watched it and had forgot the lucky bounce on the concrete wall of the burn to not go in...

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2019, 12:14:19 PM »
If there was a time for a caddie to pull a Tin Cup and snap the driver and 3 wood over his knee, this was it.  The 18th is not your garden variety finishing hole, its no doubt one of the toughest finishing holes in major history.
I disagree. He could have hit it in the burn and still been able to get on or near the green in three (including the drop from the burn), with three more shots to win outright from on or near the green.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2019, 12:41:00 PM »
I gotta ask, after getting very lucky with his drive, wouldn't it have been the prudent play to hit wedge well short of the burn? It seems to me that hitting a club which could reach OOB left near the green was bad play. I mean he was 15 yards offline with the second after a very shaky drive he got away with. Why not go to a stock wedge for the second and take a view after that? Why choose a club which introduces danger left, right and short? The man wasn't playing percentages in a situation which demanded prudence. His bad luck came into play because he allowed it to do so.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 01:08:13 PM by Sean_A »
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Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2019, 12:52:13 PM »
Sean

That's a good point, the area where his drive ended up is surrounded by the burn on 3 sides.  He was very lucky his drive ended up playable.

You could hit 100 balls from that tee on 18, aiming for that spot and be lucky to get 10 in that area.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Carnoustie+Golf+Links/@56.4960186,-2.7215081,170m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4886f504a801c49b:0x2b7965a3ef43273b!8m2!3d56.4963621!4d-2.7162482

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2019, 12:56:07 PM »
I gotta ask, after getting very lucky with his drive, what wouldn't it have been the prudent play to hit wedge well short of the burn? It seems to me that hitting a club which could reach OOB left near the green was bad play.
Hindsight is 20/20.

In the moment, he was playing well enough to have a three-shot lead on the last hole of the British Open. So there are probably plenty of mental game guys out there who would tell you to keep doing what got you there.

On the flip side, Tiger played the 18th at Doral (I think) one year by hitting an iron, hitting up short of the green, and chipping on and two-putting for a winning bogey.

Ultimately, though, if his ball on the second shot is 1/4" in any direction, he likely wins outright on 18.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2019, 01:20:50 PM »
I gotta ask, after getting very lucky with his drive, what wouldn't it have been the prudent play to hit wedge well short of the burn? It seems to me that hitting a club which could reach OOB left near the green was bad play.
Hindsight is 20/20.

In the moment, he was playing well enough to have a three-shot lead on the last hole of the British Open. So there are probably plenty of mental game guys out there who would tell you to keep doing what got you there.

On the flip side, Tiger played the 18th at Doral (I think) one year by hitting an iron, hitting up short of the green, and chipping on and two-putting for a winning bogey.

Ultimately, though, if his ball on the second shot is 1/4" in any direction, he likely wins outright on 18.

Well okay then, the man played a completely unnecessary shot which introduced completely unnecessary problems.  That sounds very much like a dumb play.  I get that the 4 iron second is not a difficult shot for these guys normally....but man...those weren't normal circumstances.  I think you are also forgetting that his second was 15 yards right of a safe right side of green/bunker play. That it miles off the line so you get what you get when a pro misses a shot that badly.  Bad luck only after a very bad shot.  I also think you are forgetting that VdV was far from striping it so I don't know why folks would think he had confidence or was in full control of his game....he wasn't...he shot 77 after some very good recovery shots...even on the 18th!


To say VdV gets a triple because of bad luck isn't close to reality.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 01:23:13 PM by Sean_A »
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