Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?

[SL_Solow]

Kalen,  Hard to disagree with that.

[Tim Martin]

I love the municipal courses that have an advertiser on each tee sign. Always inspirational to know that Ruby-Jo’s Pawn, Check Cashing and House of Nails is at the ready if you need them.

[Mark Fedeli]

Prior to President Trump turning to politics weren't these signs thought of as just over the top marketing?  And weren't some attracted to his over the top marketing in golf and real estate and even TV?


Other than my own sensibilities relative to golf I am not sure why the darn sign would be an issue?


What I would think more relevant to golf and Trump "the designer/architect" was his involvement at Trump Westchester/Briarcliff where I believe he was touted/listed as the co-designer.

It’s only harmless over-the-top marketing if you’re suckered by it. For the rest of us, it insults our intelligence. I don’t forgive that from any person or brand, and I do marketing for a living.


Also, prior to politics he embarrassed himself by bashing the renovation of Pinehurst and by proclaiming Trump Philly to be superior to Pine Valley. Let us not dumb ourselves down by giving free passes to the village idiot.

[John Kavanaugh]

Anyone who loses money building or owning a course that I enjoy is a friend of mine. Don't tap on the fish tank!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Anyone who loses money building or owning a course that I enjoy is a friend of mine. Don't tap on the fish tank!!!

The above is not meant to imply that I know or care who does or does not make money building or operating golf courses. I simply am greatful to all who try.

[Gib_Papazian]

Putting aside that George Will was right about his intrusion into politics, I cannot fathom how I seem to be the only person who knows Trump is a complete put-on. In other words, he does not REALLY believe Trump National in Palos Verdes is better than Cypress Point, but he wants you to think HE believes it.


This guy is smarter than everybody, because - unlike Black Jesus, who was a Manchurian Candidate, invented out of whole cloth - (follow me here) the majority of America knew him as a crooked developer and reality show schmuck. Yet, this man exhaled such believable bullshit, he nipped the Clinton Machine at the buzzer - with 99% of the Washington Press Corps suggesting he was the next Pol Pot.


But here is the thing, Donald Trump has absolutely exquisite taste - and knows how to express what he wants. That, kiddies, is why his ups and downs had a whole lot more ups. Whether his building, hotel or casino makes it or not, the reason for failure will not be for lack of excellent service and attention to fine details.


I once had lunch with the GM of his rescue operation in Palos Verdes. For those who don't know the history of that calamity, Donald Trump was the only guy with the guts and vision to take on a disaster and create something of real merit. No, it is not a great golf course, but neither is Old Head - although I found quite a few similarities.


Here are a few observations he had made about Trump in the five years he'd been on their team:
1. Trump has an unbelievable sense of what works and what doesn't in golf design. Not that he's an architect, but he thoroughly understands the game and can articulate the reasons for his suggestions. 2. Nothing escapes his eye. A typo on the menu, a door frame two degrees off plane, a display in the pro shop that belongs next to the register. 3. He demands top quality in every aspect of the customer experience and peppers everybody with uncomfortable questions. 4. Putting aside all the carping, this guy said Trump pays his top people big money. Whether this is all to feed his ego or not, there is no denying his facilities are always well done.


So yeah, I believe this guy was born with unbelievably good instincts - and if your home course was two Tillinghast masterpieces, it would not shock me Trump is a quick enough study to have assimilated all the great golf courses he has been exposed to - and apply that knowledge to fit his own tastes.


No, I did not vote for him. No, I did not vote for Hillary either.       

[Mark Fedeli]

Exquisite taste? Nope. That’s not correct.

[corey miller]

I get it Mark you don't like President Trump and you don't like his marketing and you don't like his golf courses. 


To what extent has he been successful in marketing in the Real Estate Industry?  Whats the deal with all those people clamoring to buy at one of his properties or one of the properties that license his name?


There is certainly something he is doing correct in the marketing of his golf clubs and real estate?  Are those with apartments at the Trump Tower suckers? Mar-a-Lago? 


Just as his taste and style appeal to people in the club/golf world I assume it appeals to people in real estate also? 


Is he not allowed to say he "builds the best buildings"? 

[Gib_Papazian]

What goes on under the hood or behind the curtain at Trump, Inc is a different discussion. From my perspective, demanding your employees comport like Leona Helmsley is running the joint is not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, she was a nasty, demanding shrew - but I've never seen any other hotel run with the same attention to detail and panache.


Nobody wants to give the devil (Trumpet) his due, but he's the driving force of an impressive empire - a man who is not afraid to take chances and demand what he wants. Everybody hated Neutron Jack, but without his iron fist, G.E. would have closed up shop by 1982.


That does not mean Jack Welch was a box of sweets, he was an impossible cunt. BUT, so was Steve Jobs . . . . . so was Ross Perot. They get it done - and like it or not - they usually get it done right.


"The activist is not the man who says the river is dirty. The activist is the man who cleans up the river." - Ross Perot 

[Kalen Braley]

Gib,

I think the primary issue you are up against here is most of us have heard his press conferences and rallies where he rambles on with incoherent thought using mostly incomplete sentences.

I don't think many people are buying the argument that Trump and intelligence go together...

But i will not dispute his ability to gaslight, appeal to people's fears, and descend into the gutter to berate a perceived opponent.

[John Kavanaugh]

Let Facebook be Facebook. Why bring that crap here?

[Ulrich Mayring]

No political comment from me, his presidency speaks for itself.

But taste? Can that even be discussed?

[corey miller]

Yes Ulrich....no political comment.


Mike Keiser is often lauded for his input on designs by championing the "retail golfer".....Isn't President Trump playing the same role at his clubs working with the designer championing the "blowhard golfer" or whatever we want to call it?  There is a market for it and silly for those on this site to think otherwise.


I have only visited one of his clubs (Briarcliff) the course is a solid "3" and completely unappealing BUT are the other golfer amenities (clubhouse, locker room, food service) outside of the norm of any club that like Briarcliff has been built in the last twenty years in the NYC Metro Area?


Other than the obnoxious (though it is marketing and he is a genius marketer and certainly understands his audience) "Trump" everywhere is there really anything he has done architecturally at his facilities that is outside the norm?

[V. Kmetz]

"The activist is not the man who says the river is dirty. The activist is the man who cleans up the river." - Ross Perot 

Public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail; without it nothing can succeed. Consequently he who molds public sentiment, goes deeper than he who enacts statutes or pronounces decisions. He makes statutes and decisions possible or impossible to be executed.

A. Lincoln.

Gib, though you may genuinely believe you had a salient point to make about Trump golf, it was always bound to be a Trojan Horse for personal philosophy; the thread gave everybody a shove in their preferred direction, but you are remarkable in the lengths you'll go to defend the boujy retail tastes delivered by and for bullshit artists.

As Martin said of Jackson and Steimbrenner, it can be said of Trump and Helmsley.  "One's a born liar, the other's convicted."

[Paul Jones]

Many years ago on this site I asked how much did Bobby Jones contribute to the design of his courses: ANGC and Peachtree. 


I wonder if Bobby Jones added more or less to the design of Peachtree GC than Donald Trump does for his courses.  I wonder if Bobby Jones added more or less than Brooks Koepka has/will helping with Memorial Park.

[Sven Nilsen]

Many years ago on this site I asked how much did Bobby Jones contribute to the design of his courses: ANGC and Peachtree. 


I wonder if Bobby Jones added more or less to the design of Peachtree GC than Donald Trump does for his courses.  I wonder if Bobby Jones added more or less than Brooks Koepka has/will helping with Memorial Park.

As certain as I am that Bobby Jones had strong ideas on golf architecture, I am also certain that he was adept at deferring to the expertise of others when appropriate.

[corey miller]

Maybe it is better that we have a non-golf architecture person doing nothing in regards to design and overplaying involvement rather than a non-golf architecture person unduly influencing an experienced person while keeping it all in the dark?

[John Kavanaugh]

Have you ever had a professional decorator enter your house and let them leave without voicing an opinion? Why not get something you like and then take pride in your decisions? Or, come home and blow your brains out on the new drapes.

[corey miller]

Let's call in Snopes....


Trump is clearly not claiming to be an architect though I suspect he thinks his choices in cart path materials and Belgian Block and waterfalls (in Briarcliff) as well as acquisition of adjoining property makes him irreplaceable. 

[Tom Allen]

Speaking of signs on courses: on who else's courses would you find a plaque commemorating a civil war battle (the "River of Blood") that literally never happened?

[Tim Gavrich]

2. Nothing escapes his eye. A typo on the menu, a door frame two degrees off plane, a display in the pro shop that belongs next to the register.

One of the funniest things I've ever read on this site. Gib, for your own sake, please stay off Twitter so you can remain a true believer.

[Gib_Papazian]

Tim,


I have no idea how to "Tweet" - nor "follow" somebody's irrelevant twaddle. If that is one of the funniest things you've ever read on this site, you possess an even stranger sense of humor than me.


And I'm hardly a "true believer," but I have retained an ability to spot Trump Derangement Syndrome" - especially when it is really more adolescent piling on by a pseudo "Journalist."


What I *did* assert - since your reading comprehension seems suddenly truncated - were the detailed observations of the General Manager. 


I forgot to mention that I was actually there - and met Trump briefly, several years before he decided to fuck up his privileged life in politics. 


The fact is, Trump went over every square inch of the golf course, met with the golf professional and merchandiser and had a bite to eat in the restaurant.


He did not berate anybody, was not in the company of Putin's minions and was respectful and kind to everybody. Just exactly what a real estate investor would be expected to do - tending to the affairs of his real estate firm.


He has a similar bearing to Ross Perot, except taller - and with more hair. Trump did not demand holes be torn up and rebuilt in his vision - and in truth, given what a disaster he took over - ought to have his ass kissed by the politicians who would have sat there and let the rest of the property fall into the Pacific Ocean.


Trump's public persona is a pompous, argumentative asshole . . . . . true dat. But you know what? you may not like his methods, but there is a lovely golf course in Palos Verdes, instead of an environmental train wreck. Trump bought it, he hired an architect and turned it into a terrific addition to the community - putting aside those inexcusably gauche plaques on #1 and #18.


If you don't like it, next time a golf course falls off a cliff (like it did at Olympic), call Maxine Waters instead. She'd steal the property through eminent domaine and use our tax dollars to build another Section 8 mess.       


     


   

[Jason Hines]

Tim,


I have no idea how to "Tweet" - nor "follow" somebody's irrelevant twaddle. If that is one of the funniest things you've ever read on this site, you possess an even stranger sense of humor than me.


And I'm hardly a "true believer," but I have retained an ability to spot Trump Derangement Syndrome" - especially when it is really more adolescent piling on by a pseudo "Journalist."


What I *did* assert - since your reading comprehension seems suddenly truncated - were the detailed observations of the General Manager. 


I forgot to mention that I was actually there - and met Trump briefly, several years before he decided to fuck up his privileged life in politics. 


The fact is, Trump went over every square inch of the golf course, met with the golf professional and merchandiser and had a bite to eat in the restaurant.


He did not berate anybody, was not in the company of Putin's minions and was respectful and kind to everybody. Just exactly what a real estate investor would be expected to do - tending to the affairs of his real estate firm.


He has a similar bearing to Ross Perot, except taller - and with more hair. Trump did not demand holes be torn up and rebuilt in his vision - and in truth, given what a disaster he took over - ought to have his ass kissed by the politicians who would have sat there and let the rest of the property fall into the Pacific Ocean.


Trump's public persona is a pompous, argumentative asshole . . . . . true dat. But you know what? you may not like his methods, but there is a lovely golf course in Palos Verdes, instead of an environmental train wreck. Trump bought it, he hired an architect and turned it into a terrific addition to the community - putting aside those inexcusably gauche plaques on #1 and #18.


If you don't like it, next time a golf course falls off a cliff (like it did at Olympic), call Maxine Waters instead. She'd steal the property through eminent domaine and use our tax dollars to build another Section 8 mess.       


     


   

Is this really Gib..... Or the Russians...... Mooo haahahahha!!!

[Terry Lavin]

Tim,


I have no idea how to "Tweet" - nor "follow" somebody's irrelevant twaddle. If that is one of the funniest things you've ever read on this site, you possess an even stranger sense of humor than me.


And I'm hardly a "true believer," but I have retained an ability to spot Trump Derangement Syndrome" - especially when it is really more adolescent piling on by a pseudo "Journalist."


What I *did* assert - since your reading comprehension seems suddenly truncated - were the detailed observations of the General Manager. 


I forgot to mention that I was actually there - and met Trump briefly, several years before he decided to fuck up his privileged life in politics. 


The fact is, Trump went over every square inch of the golf course, met with the golf professional and merchandiser and had a bite to eat in the restaurant.


He did not berate anybody, was not in the company of Putin's minions and was respectful and kind to everybody. Just exactly what a real estate investor would be expected to do - tending to the affairs of his real estate firm.


He has a similar bearing to Ross Perot, except taller - and with more hair. Trump did not demand holes be torn up and rebuilt in his vision - and in truth, given what a disaster he took over - ought to have his ass kissed by the politicians who would have sat there and let the rest of the property fall into the Pacific Ocean.


Trump's public persona is a pompous, argumentative asshole . . . . . true dat. But you know what? you may not like his methods, but there is a lovely golf course in Palos Verdes, instead of an environmental train wreck. Trump bought it, he hired an architect and turned it into a terrific addition to the community - putting aside those inexcusably gauche plaques on #1 and #18.


If you don't like it, next time a golf course falls off a cliff (like it did at Olympic), call Maxine Waters instead. She'd steal the property through eminent domaine and use our tax dollars to build another Section 8 mess.       


     


   

Sounds like he has the interest and intellectual capability to absorb, process and implement golf club concepts. We’ve seen precious little evidence that he has similar abilities regarding national intelligence, environmental protection, constitutional responsibilities or pretty much anything relevant in the role of being president.


But he knows about bunker placement, omelet stations and slim-sleight-of-hand fashion conceits.  Along with pathological lying, bullying and bigot/racist coddling.  So, he’s got that going for him. Which ain’t nice.

[Lou_Duran]

Gib Papazian,


I have missed your banter, and am glad that you're still around, but why bother?  You are not dealing with normal, rational folks here.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who, comparatively speaking, have a hard time rubbing two nickels together feel so free to attack the intelligence and abilities of those who have built large organizations and amassed great fortunes over long periods of time.  Human nature, I suppose.

Surely you know that it is better to pursue threads such as how golf can be contained to suit our own preferences (limitations), or analyze 80 year-old newspaper articles about golf courses which were never built or NLE.  Perhaps you can help resolve the 20 year-old question on the proper number of tees on a course: two? three? four or more?  Maybe you can shed light on the legitimacy of golf played on heavy soils- should golf courses not built on sand be allowed to exist?

BTW, I think your analysis of Trump is essentially right, as is of his detractors.  For as smart as most of my Democrat friends are, they really have a hard time evaluating their opponents.  With the exception of Nixon, I don't remember of a Republican president who was not caricatured by his opposition as a dunce, ignoramus, light weight, unread, incurious, etc.  "Tricky Dicky", by today's standards a normal, centrist Democrat in terms of policy and ethical conduct,  was painted as an evil, amoral psychopath.

I don't know how much architectural credit Trump should rightfully receive for his courses.  Perhaps the correct level is something between Fred Couples and well short of Tom Doak.  Many times over the years we have read tidbits on this site about how developers screw up the design of their courses, mainly through demands they place on the design team they employ.  Is there another side to that coin?  Or is the well-liked Mr. Keiser the rare developer who provides positive input?  Are the principles of golf course architecture that complicated and esoteric that it precludes all those but the highly-trained experts who spend countless days on the site from achieving success?  I think history suggests otherwise.