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Dan Herrmann

  • Total Karma: 0
Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« on: February 03, 2019, 09:42:20 AM »
From a story in the Washington Post about Trump and his rounds of golf with Jack and Tiger (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-just-played-a-round-of-golf-with-tiger-woods-and-jack-nicklaus/2019/02/02/678b760c-270f-11e9-ba08-caf4ff5a3433_story.html?utm_term=.0d9dbce5c276  ), we read:


"Trump is proud of his courses, often describing how he designed the bunkers, turns and the intricate features in detail. “He shows how he took out trees, put in traps. He loves to describe how he developed the courses,” (Senator Lyndsay) Graham said in a 2018 interview. “He really likes showing them off.”

Does anybody know if Trump actually (re)designs his courses after the real architects have left the project?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 09:45:42 AM by Dan Herrmann »

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 09:45:16 AM »
I've never played with an owner of a course that didn't do the exact same thing.

Dan Herrmann

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 09:46:51 AM »
Good point, John.     Whether it's the owner or the Green Chair, some guys really seem to think they're capable of being an architect.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2019, 03:43:46 AM »
Good point, John.     Whether it's the owner or the Green Chair, some guys really seem to think they're capable of being an architect.

Or in the case of Rye, a local lawyer and Club Captain. And in the case of Alwoodley, a local doctor and Hon Secretary...


...bloody amateurs!

 ;)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 03:59:49 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Duncan Cheslett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2019, 03:52:32 AM »
Duplicated post

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2019, 05:36:10 AM »
Ego and vanity, wonderful (sic).
Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2019, 08:53:13 AM »
It’s hard to know for sure how insistent Mr Trump is about making changes or doing things his way.  A couple of the architects who have worked with him have praised his input, but of course the would have to, if they want to work for him again.  And none of the rest of us can say for certain.  (Mr Trump has gone through a few different architects over time - but not as fast as he goes through Cabinet members.)


One of the architects interviewed for Aberdeen did tell me that in the interview he was asked point blank if he was okay with Mr Trump being co-designer and deferring to his wishes.  He who hesitated, did not get the job.



There was also a report that further changes were made at Turnberty this winter because Trump played the new holes twice and didn’t like how they had turned out . . . Two rounds is a pretty quick hook.


At some level, clients do have the final say.  I’m clear in my contracts that they can fire me without cause whenever they want, as long as they’ve paid for the work I’ve done to date.  But in the meantime, the final artistic decisions should remain with the designer.  If the client isn’t okay with that, they’re probably going to be hard to work with.

Ian Andrew

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2019, 09:43:52 AM »
...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 01:24:37 PM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2019, 10:52:11 AM »
To follow up on John K's statement.

Has Mike K ever taken credit for smaller things like this on his courses?  I know he has final approval, but I'm guessing not...

John McCarthy

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 11:59:51 AM »
I can't find it now but the Golf Channel had a documentary series about the creation of Trump Aberdeen.  I recall a scene of Trump and Hawtree walking the site and Trump giving a direction to move a dune to place a green overlooking the sea.  It is my understanding that the dunes were pretty important environmentally but Trump gets what Trump wants. 
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2019, 01:43:42 PM »

In a presentation many years ago, someone asked me under what circumstances I might be comfortable in telling a difficult client "no."  I cracked a joke about it being the day my last child graduated college.  Someone just reminded me of that line, some 20 years later.


More seriously, having worked with some dogmatic PGA pros (and owners) I usually accommodate where reasonable, and tell that they should trust me to prevent them from implementing any "lay the green side of sod down" type directives.  Not sure about the greens on the dunes, but if it was illegal, I would probably protest, and then follow up with a field report that I did in fact recommend strongly that move not be made, knowing guys like Trump usually, but not always, get a pass on stuff like that.



You would be surprised (perhaps) at the number of illegal directives we get, usually to skirt environmental or ADA requirements.


I had a similar situation when designing a course on an island in the middle of the Yang Ze River a few years ago.  I had routed the second half of a par 4 up the hill away from the water to shorten the walk to the next tee, but the client asked why not on the river, since carts would be required.  It also causes an unsafe walk back, etc. but I changed the plans, seeing why he thought it was better.  And, the course will most likely never get built anyway.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Whitaker

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 06:03:28 PM »
This says it all!


"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

BHoover

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 06:16:52 PM »
This says it all!





It screams egotistical maniac!

Mark Fedeli

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Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 08:05:25 AM »
If anyone ever needed a non-political reason to not play Trump Aberdeen, that sign is most certainly it.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Peter Ferlicca

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 08:37:24 AM »
I am pretty sure there is a sign almost identical at Trump National LA that says it was the most expensive course built and yadda yadda, and that it is the finest course in the world.  I just don't understand how every Trump course is the finest course in the world. ::) ::) ::)

Tim Leahy

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2019, 01:01:15 AM »
I am pretty sure there is a sign almost identical at Trump National LA that says it was the most expensive course built and yadda yadda, and that it is the finest course in the world.  I just don't understand how every Trump course is the finest course in the world. ::) ::) ::)
Comrade Trumpsky lie? :P
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2019, 10:43:10 AM »
I am no fan of President Trump in almost every facet of his life but I confine myself here to architecture.  I hate the signs but in fairness, I was also offended by the signs at the European Club when I visited several years ago which trumpeted certain features as being rated  in the Top X of the world.  We should maintain the same standards for all owners/designers.  For those who have been there recently, are the signs still up at the European Club?

Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2019, 10:50:24 AM »
I am no fan of President Trump in almost every facet of his life but I confine myself here to architecture.  I hate the signs but in fairness, I was also offended by the signs at the European Club when I visited several years ago which trumpeted certain features as being rated  in the Top X of the world.  We should maintain the same standards for all owners/designers.  For those who have been there recently, are the signs still up at the European Club?


Could you explain what you mean by “We should maintain the same standards for all owners/designers.” Thanks.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2019, 12:02:32 PM »
Tim,


I was thinking same, I've never seen something like this on a golf course before.  Only thing even remotely close was the plaque on 17 tee at CPC, but the message/tone couldn't be more different.

corey miller

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2019, 12:12:33 PM »





Prior to President Trump turning to politics weren't these signs thought of as just over the top marketing?  And weren't some attracted to his over the top marketing in golf and real estate and even TV?


Other than my own sensibilities relative to golf I am not sure why the darn sign would be an issue?


What I would think more relevant to golf and Trump "the designer/architect" was his involvement at Trump Westchester/Briarcliff where I believe he was touted/listed as the co-designer. 








SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2019, 12:22:19 PM »
What I meant was that while I agree that signs hyping a course, particularly ones that (to put it politely) exaggerate their worth, are to be shunned, it seems to me that we are being selective in our criticism.  Let the course stand on its own merits regardless of who designed or owns it.  Save the hype, if needed, for advertising.  Again, not a defense of the Trump courses or approach

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2019, 12:23:52 PM »
Shelly,


I'd love to see other examples of signs like this so I/we can apply the dislike equally!  ;)

SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2019, 10:36:10 PM »
I suggested that when I played at the European Club several years ago, a favorite of many here, there were several signs throughout the course touting the ratings of holes as being rated among the best in the world.  Perhaps not as quite over the top as those at the Trump courses but really out of place at what purported to be a modern classic links.  All of us in the group remarked at how the signs detracted from the course.  I asked whether they are still there.  Again, no excuse for Trump. 

Mike Sweeney

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2019, 05:53:39 AM »
Shelly,
I'd love to see other examples of signs like this so I/we can apply the dislike equally!  ;)

At West Point, they commemorate many of the battles and wars that the Cadets have fought in, starting with the Revolutionary War. On the surface, an interesting tie in to the place but I probably would have gone for famous West Point Cadets who have played the course. Think "The Eisenhower 5th at West Point". From a golf perspective the signs are actually quite long to read, they are ugly, they have advertising, they slow down the round, and it has nothing to do with the golf course.

Naval Academy  GC signs are a little more elegant!!

#GoNavyBeatArmy



"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Donald Trump - Golf Course Architect?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2019, 11:21:46 AM »
Mike,


To clarify I'm not against tactful signage on a course, but to me, and this is just me....its a whole different animal when it honors deserving people, or expresses genuine gratitude compared to being dishonest and self-serving.