Do some mistake over shaping as talent?

[Mike_Young]

i keep some junk that someidentify as good and perhaps it’s just me but there seems to be some  “shock jock”  type of designs out there that will not withstand the test of time.   Is it just me?

[Jaeger Kovich]

trying to show some RESTRAINT here 

[Adam Lawrence]

With respect Mike, without some context, this post is the GCA equivalent of throwing shit against the wall to see if it sticks.

[Mike_Young]

With respect Mike, without some context, this post is the GCA equivalent of throwing shit against the wall to see if it sticks.

Adam,Of course I'm trying to stir shit here but I don't see it as you describe.  I see more and more stuff that has no strategy or purpose other than to see how well one can place features etc. 

[Mike_Young]

trying to show some RESTRAINT here 

Are you asking me or are you stating?    If asking then answer is yes.

[Matt MacIver]

Of course. It’s easier than charge more and show value when you push tangible dirt around, vs sitting in a room laboring over a routing.

[Carl Rogers]

Sweeten's Cove? ...... ok hate me.

[jeffwarne]

Is NGLA, GC Men's ,Southampton or Engineers "shock jock" because many of the features  at three of them were softened or eliminated and evidently didn't stand "the test of time"


.....But then many restored.... so what exactly is the "test of time"

[Mike_Young]

Is NGLA, GC Men's ,Southampton or Engineers "shock jock" because many of the features  at three of them were softened or eliminated and evidently didn't stand "the test of time"


.....But then many restored.... so what exactly is the "test of time"

I see what you are saying but that's not exactly what I'm talking about.  Subtlety is much more difficult to shape than "here tis"...

[Ally Mcintosh]

What I was getting at with this thread from 6 years ago:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56826.0.html

[jeffwarne]

There's no money in doing less.....

[Greg Tallman]

Among the “retail golfer” crowd? Undoubtedly so.


Among this crowd? Probably a few could be fooled by a great job of over shaping not many. Then again the term itself implies a mistake.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,


I'm curious....would you put Mike Stanz or Jim Engh in this category?

[John Kavanaugh]

Sometimes a site can be over shaped by nature. They remind me of the death scene in Ordinary People. You hang on until exhaustion gets the best of you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSwQHahTFt8

[MCirba]

A good rule of thumb:

If you notice the shaping it's over-shaped.

[Sean_A]

A good rule of thumb:

If you notice the shaping it's over-shaped.

Very shortsighted imo.  It depends on what is meant to be achieved.  Not all architecture must adhere to natural lines and fail to be noticed.  There is much to be said for bold shaping which is noticed. 

Ciao

[Brett Hochstein]

I see what you are saying but that's not exactly what I'm talking about.  Subtlety is much more difficult to shape than "here tis"...

This is incredibly true.  For example, rebuilding an old green to increase pin locations yet retain the same character and interest is markedly more difficult and painstaking than blowing the whole thing up and going wild. 

[BCrosby]

There's no money in doing less.....

Yep.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,


I'm curious....would you put Mike Stanz or Jim Engh in this category?

First, let me say I have been guilty of it a long time ago when I did Heritage in ATL.  Owner wanted it and we did it.  Wish I had not.  Strantz was good and I have used his same guys a few times and appreciate their ability and work.  I never understood Engh courses but that doesn't mean anything.  It's like modern art to me and I don't get a lot of modern art that other people do.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

I'll take that as a yes! 

P.S.  I think this thread would be better stated as "Do some mistake over shaping, that looks unnatural, as talent?"  I'm reminded of a Pac Dunes thread years ago where posters of this site tried to guess where the shaping was and wasn't, before TD revealed all at the end....safe to say,everyone got a F on that activity! 

[Joe Hancock]

There's no money in doing less.....

I should have trademarked that long ago. But I like it when you use it too....

[jeffwarne]

There's no money in doing less.....

I should have trademarked that long ago. But I like it when you use it too....

Just like teaching Joe-I've pretty much stolen (or paid for) every phrase I use...

[Peter Pallotta]

No money in doing less, and (for some) no ego satisfaction either. Few want to be a king in disguise, walking amongst the crowd unrecognized. It's not enough to 'do', we want to be seen to be doing, and praised for it. Luckily there's instagram now, and those podcasts are pretty upbeat.

[Tom_Doak]

For me the telltale sign is people working too hard to make sure every single hole has a “memorable” feature that can be easily placed.  Or as Mr Dye complained 37 years ago, “They want every hole to be a postcard.”  That bothered him because it wasn’t true of almost any of the great old courses, other than Pine Valley.

[Mike_Young]

No money in doing less, and (for some) no ego satisfaction either. Few want to be a king in disguise, walking amongst the crowd unrecognized. It's not enough to 'do', we want to be seen to be doing, and praised for it. Luckily there's instagram now, and those podcasts are pretty upbeat.

First, there is more money for shapers who can shape without most knowing they shaped.  Secondly, there is very little glamour in golf design and if that is one,s goal they will be miserable.