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Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re: End of a Historic Course?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2003, 10:33:47 PM »
John,

I was wondering where you were, I thought we would at least hear something from you.  I am glad to hear your perspective as well as a FL insider.

I enjoyed the layout, and as a golfer hate to see anywhere go away.  Never having lived in FL I can't understand what you are talking about.  I am glad I went to play the Ponce incase it is gone forever, that is one thing I know.  If I decided I wanted to see it next year, I may never have the chance.  I didnt want to miss this opportunity, that is something that you can never get back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

John Conley

Re: End of a Historic Course?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2003, 10:43:45 PM »
Turbs:

My goal is to play all of the world's great golf courses, not all of its courses.  Do you consider Ponce De Leon anything more than a 4th Decile layout?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: End of a Historic Course?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2003, 11:13:05 PM »
John,

In a word....No.

However I am on a slightly different mission (albiet a lofty and foolhardy one) to play them all.  

Seriously though I try to use my golfmap software almost every afternoon when I am traveling and find the closest course to where I am finishing up my sales calls and at least drive out and take a look at it, grab a scorecard, etc.  If the weather is good, and they have some twilight deal I will go out an squeeze in whatever holes I can.  Believe me I have seen all ends of the spectrum when doing this.  But at the same time I am also seeing most of the courses around this area.  At least those that will let you walk up and play.

D.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: End of a Historic Course?
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2003, 08:57:43 AM »
Like you, and unlike a great many on this board, I think it is important to see the whole spectrum of "what's out there" when evaluating courses.  I'm just not going to cry when some courses close in Florida.

It would be a crime if we lost the Dunes at Seville or other similar, downtrodden gem.  I just didn't think Ponce De Leon was that special.  Plus, they gouged the crap out of people playing there.  Perhaps their decline was in part a result of the decision to charge $80 or whatever it was on a 50-degree day when I was there!!  I get a kick out of reading how it is now a value course.  It wasn't in the mid- to late-90s.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

john stiles

Re: End of a Historic Course?
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2003, 09:23:49 AM »
To all,

The Donald Ross Society has been to the Ponce deLeon and the DRS is supporting the community and those who would like to save the Ponce.  This obviously involves a lot of money and the DRS is offering and has offered moral support.

Michael Fay, exec director of DRS, has visited the Ponce recently and  Fay was interviewed for the Golf Channel feature. His interview was broadcast on the first night of the Ponce feature.  So the DRS is involved in trying to save the course  (ps...The DRS also had a fall meeting at the Ponce in 1994).

As you can realize,  this involves big $$$ and it isn't clear what will happen.  Almost any course with ocean/marsh front property cannot stand any sort of economic analysis as a public or privately held club as compared to very profitable lots, housing, and associated development.

Below,  I have listed the article from the DRS web site and a similar article from a pending DRS newsletter to the members.

Any suggestions for the DRS or any other matter re: the DRS should be forwarded to the executive director, Michael Fay at  mjfay@attbi.com  or  you can forward anything (anything) to me, John Stiles, at jstiles@demaximis.com

John Stiles
865-251-3174 (work)
865-525-2950 (home)


The excerpts from DRS web site and future newsletter follow .......


The Ponce deLeon
St. Augustine, Florida -----------------------------
By Michael J. Fay
On Florida’s’ First Coast in the oldest city in North America lies the oldest continuously operated Golf Club in the State of Florida. The Ponce deLeon was established as the St. Augustine Links in 1895. The course was right down town surrounding the then 350-year-old fort in the center of town.
In 1915, the Florida East Coast Railway Company, the business of John D. Rockefeller’s partner Henry Flagler commissioned Donald J. Ross to design and build two golf courses in St. Augustine to be used by the members of the St. Augustine Links Club as well as the guests of the Ponce deLeon Hotel, which was owned by the railway. The St. Augustine Links South was designed but never built. The St. Augustine North course was built in 1915 and opened for business in 1916.
In 1917 the course was sold by the Estate of Henry Flagler to the Ponce deLeon Golf Club, a successor to the St Augustine Links. Over the years the course bore the name Ponce deLeon and/or St. Augustine Links. In the 1920’s the course hosted a number of Club Champion Championships and saw the likes of Bobby Jones and Watts Gunn on the links. In the ‘30’s a Pro-Am, which was considered a part of the fledgling PGA Tour, was played there hosting Byron Nelson, Henry Picard, Ben Hogan and others.
In the 1950’s a hotel was built to abut the property. The hotel was never really as successful as the builders imagined and into the eighties and nineties started to reflect the lack of architectural pizzazz. The course continued on, two of the original holes were altered and later three of the holes on the backside were taken out of play and three new holes were added. The holes that have been retired act as the staging ground for a par three course and could be reinstated at any time, as they were when the Donald Ross Society visited in 1995.
The Ponce is located on a strip of land between Route 1 and Reynolds’ Creek a part of the Intercoastal Canal. Five of the holes on the front side of the course are snug to Reynolds’ Creek, giving the players an unobstructed view of the Intercoastal and the marshes that surround it. As a matter of fact the view is open on eleven of the eighteen holes. The terrain of the course is generally flat with a gentle sway here and there. The greens are of the old push up variety that Ross was wont to build. The card of the course states 6,823 from the back tees. This is not a terribly daunting as far as distance is concerned but becomes more troubling when the ever-present wind is added. The Ponce must be played close to the ground. Highly lofted shots even slightly pushed or pulled can gain disastrous result. Suffice to say, that with its unique geography and untarnished exposure to the elements that are indigenous to the areas surrounding the Intercoastal, the Ponce offers actual links golf. The course must be plotted along the ground and executed in the same fashion. The greens are receptive to a ball rolling to the surface and the strategy of bump and run approaches is paramount.
The Ponce is in trouble. The property including the hotel and the golf course has been sold to a developer. The developer plans to use the site for development of high-end housing. Naturally the most desired lots would be those along the Intercoastal. The natural beauty of the site that Ross and the Florida East Railroad chose 88 years ago may be the ultimate undoing of the Ponce deLeon Golf Club.
There is hope. At a public hearing the developer, Chester Stokes offered the course for sale to the St. John’s County. I am not aware of the details of the proposed sale although I heard that $ 5.5 MM is the offer. This is a price that seems reasonable for a County that is in need of a golf facility. The other County course is a facility that sees some 73,000 rounds a year. The facility is clearly fully utilized. The Ponce, as a golf course has been a financial success. The past couple of years the Ponce has suffered from the rumors of the sale and the impending closing of the facility and has not fared quite as well as when it was doing 38,000 rounds a year and clearing $ 500,000 annually for the owner. This is recent past and the facility could easily do this kind of business in a stable environment.
On a recent visit to St. Augustine, I was interviewed by the “Golf Channel” for a special on the Ponce. This should air sometime near the end of February or the beginning of March. A number of local dignitaries as well as a number of members of the Ponce deLeon Club also gave their thoughts that day. The “Golf Channel” will interview the developer this coming week.
All of the hype aside, the Ponce offers a few things that are hard to find in St. Augustine. Six college and high school golf teams play there, it is the last vestige of links golf on the coast and it is one of the very few places where anyone can put their bag on their back and walk the golf course. In fact, the Ponce is one of the very few courses that are affordable enough to allow for public junior golf.
The decision is now in the hands of the County Commissioners. The offer has been made and they should buy the Ponce. This beautiful piece of property and the historical course that lies upon it should be brought into the public domain and preserved for the future. Certainly, the replacement value of the Ponce is much greater than the offering price and the significance to the history of St. John’s County and to the community of youthful golfers outweigh any other consideration.    Save the Ponce, it only makes sense...

<  Also from pending DRS newsletter  >

The Ponce deLeon

The Ponce deLeon in St. Augustine, Florida, the oldest Golf Club in Florida is in danger of extinction. The course, which has been attached for forty years to a resort hotel, has been sold to a local developer. The developer has the intention of plowing under the course to create an up-scale housing development. This 1916 Donald Ross design is one of the last remaining links style courses in Florida and serves the St. Augustine Community as a “Public Welcome” facility. Fees are considerably lower than most other golf courses in the area and the Ponce caters to six college and high school golf teams. It remains one of the few places in the area where a player of any age can walk and carry. The Donald Ross Society is working with Membership of the Ponce and the Community to help save the course. Six holes of the course front on the Intercoastal Waterway, which makes it terribly inviting for any developer. The developer has offered to sell the course to St. John’s County at a reasonable price. We at the Ross Society urge the County Commissioners to accept this offer and preserve the property for the good of all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: End of a Historic Course?
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2003, 11:27:30 AM »

Here is the Ponce De Leon posts from earlier..



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »