End of a Historic Course?

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I heard somewhere that an old Donald Ross course may be going away in the next few months to be plowed under for a housing development.  I think it may have been here on GCA that I heard it possibly from John Conley.

The course is Ponce De Leon GC (D.Ross 1916) in St. Augustine, FL and it is scheduled to go under the potential dozer in a few months.

I made a point to stop out and play it a few weeks ago, just incase I ever wanted to and didnt have the opportunity ever again.  After playing it I was very sad to think that this wonderful place could dissapear forever.  I had hoped to type an eloquent and long report on the course, but alas I have not found the time.  And I feel it is time that I must start this post.  Because I noticed on the Golf Channel last night part one of a two part story detailing the situation there at Ponce De Leon.  I believe they said it is the oldest course in FL.

I hope to come back and modify this thread later to put some detial inot it on the holes themselves, but suffice it to say at this time that it is one of the strongest front nines you would ever want to play.  The entire front nine (and some of the back as well) are exposed to the wind and elements on a windswept area with expansive views of the beautiful FL lowcountry/Intercoastal Waterway or what ever that is.  In fact on 5 holes on the front nine that Water body is actually directly in play on the hole, and everyone provides spectacular views.  The windy and firm conditions made it a real pleasure to play.  

Alas this is a wonderful property, unfortunately for the golf course's future it may be too wonderful of a property.  Worth too much as a potential condo site.

Here are some thoughts on the front nine.  I will add the back nine as I complete it:

Ponce De Leon Resort Golf Course, St. Augustine, FL

The Ponce De Leon Resort Golf Course or “The Ponce” as it is known was originally laid out by Donald Ross in 1916.  The original St. Augustine Links was laid out directly around the fort near downtown St. Augustine.  In 1916 they moved to a property out of town and hired Mr. Ross to lay out the course on the present location.  The property that the course occupies is spectacular playing from an open area with expansive views of the intercoastal and wetlands on the front nine, moving to a pine forest on the back nine before returning to the open expanses for the finishing stretch of holes.

The 1st hole is a straightforward par 4 that played directly into a stiff breeze (around 30mph) the day I played there.  I was told that this was the way of the prevailing winds out there.  The tee box is hard up against, and your opening tee shot is guarded on the right side by the water and marsh of the intercoastal wetlands.  Into this prevailing breeze this is no pushover of a hole.

The 2nd hole is another tough hole played directly into the teeth of the wind.  And at 204yds from the back tees it is one tough par 3.  A nice green complex guarded on the front right by a greenside bunker, and by a lake along the entire right hand side.

The 3rd hole is a 544yd par 5 playing downwind with a slight left to right wind.  It will tempt you to really take a rip at the tee shot with that wind behind you giving you the chance to get home in two.  However if playing from the back tees located back behind the lake paralleling the right side of the fairway, it requires a monumental carry if you take the more direct route down the right hand side.  This lake will give you all the strategic thought that you need off the tee.  Your second shot has ample room to be bounced up onto the putting surface between the two greenside bunkers.  And fortunately they maintain it firm enough to allow that as well.  A good hole.  

Turning back into the wind the next three holes will give you all the golf that you care to handle from the back tees.  The 4th plays from an elevated and exposed tee box set back into the Intercoastal wetlands.  From this elevated and exposed point you surely have one of the finest views all the way down the Intercoastal of downtown St. Augustine, the Fort, and the surrounding area.  But don’t let this view get the best of you, because you still have a lot of golf staring you right in the eye when you turn back towards the fairway.  At 439yds directly into this wind this is one tough golf hole and deserving of its #1 handicap rating.  The Intercoastal runs down the entire right hand side of this hole adding an extra ounce of intrigue.

The 5th hole is considered by most to the be signature hole if you will.  Although I don’t know that Donald Ross used that term much.  A par 3 playing 158yds all carry over the intercoastal wetlands to a peninsula green sticking out into the wetlands, and guarded by a single bunker flashed up directly in the front center of the green.  Whether by design or by years of sand splashed out of that bunker, there is a distinctive ridge extending back from that bunker dividing the putting surface into two distinctly separate areas.  Just a beautiful hole.
The 6th also is a long par 4 playing still into that prevailing wind.  At 416yds this hole also is quite difficult.  The drive is not challenged by any fairway bunkers, but the Intercoastal again defines the entire right hand side of this hole, and a couple of lakes somewhat blind from the tee guard the left hand side just to keep you from taking the easy route down that side.  A ample sized green is ready to accept the long iron or fairway wood shot that you will most likely have into it.  And the pinetrees that provide a nice backdrop framing the green may provide a little relief from the wind once you get to the green.

From here you turn back and head back with the prevailing wind for the return to the clubhouse.  The 7th at only 509 yards and a par of 5 would not seem to be quite as challenging a hole as the last few with the wind at your back.  But with a lake guarding the inside of the dogleg right off the tee it keeps you honest.  Playing safely down the left side will leave you with a longer but probably still reachable second shot.

The 8th is a slight dogleg right par 4 of only 383yds, and although guarded by a series of bunkers down the left hand side of the hole should be easily manageable with the wind behind you.

The 9th again is a fairly straightforward hole playing 399yds to a par of 4.  With the prevailing wind it should not be too much problem distance wise, but as with most of the holes out here it still is not the easiest shot to hit and hold these raised and exposed greens with that wind at your back.  Fortunately they usually accommodate the ground game option as well.

Unfortunately the system will not let me add the text that I have for the back nine it is too long for this system to handle apparently so I will have to add it as a seperate thread at the bottom.


I hope something good can still come out of this.  It sounds like there still is a chance that the course could be saved.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

You know Daryl, this is one of those things where one would think the powers that be of the Donald Ross Society would be doing something about. Was any mention made of the Ross Society being involved in trying to save the course?

If anything, I think their past performance is a complete and thorough examination of just how ineffective the Ross Society really is. It's sad that this "club" became a patsy for its two founders and not one where people that did have a passion for the man's courses could frequent with others who have the same passion.

You see, I chose not to be a member of the Ross Society, because of the proported shennanigans of those two founding members, and I think that is a sad thing because I would enjoy helping out the cause. Especially of a course that seems to be rich in history, as well as a throwback to how fun the courses of the game can be. PDL sounds like one of them.

Hopefully someone from the Ross Society will see this and try to investigate and add their name to the fray to help save the course. Or would that be just wishful thinking?

Or, actually get Rick Wolfe and Bob Trebus to show them how to run the thing. Maybe then it could be somewhat effective.

[Steve L.]

This is a wonderful piece of property, and was once a wonderful golf course.  I live 15 minutes away and am terribly disappointed for it's seeming impending demise.  It has a storied history (hosted President's and professionals), and is on an unbelievable site - starting at the intracoastal marsh, playing through the Live Oak hammocks, and returning briefly for a glimpse at the marsh.  Really great golf environment.

The golf course has been renovated (see butchered) by Desmond Muirhead and Joe Lee in as part of renovations in the 70's and 80's.  The signature 5th hole par-3 has been bulkheaded - although its site is dramatic on a point in the marsh.  Holes 12-13-14 are Joe Lee holes, disengaged from the core golf course and are terribly contrived IMO.  Those holes should be replaced by three original Ross holes near the entry which are now played as a pitch & putt...  The real shame of it is that the bones of a GREAT golf course exist now...

Even in its current state (evolved far from Ross's original features), several holes and features stand out - the 1st tee hard by the marsh edge, the tough par four 4th hole alongside the marsh, the 6th greensite tucked into the Oak Hammock,  the well bunkered 10th hole playing through the trees, the return of the course's view to the marsh at the 15th and 16th holes, and two great par 4's playing to the clubhouse (often into the wind).  In fact, the tee shot on 17 is among the best settings imaginable.

There is some doubt whether or not this is actually the first Donald Ross golf course in Florida - but at 1916 its indisputably within a year or two.

I'd love to believe the property could be developed preserving the original Ross layout - I think it could, given a different development program.  Will the market support support it..?...?  St. Johns County has become so golf saturated - without even trying I can think of a dozen golf courses (and residential communities) within 15-20 minutes drive.

Looking forward to seeing TGC for part 2 tonight...  And with the talk here - I'm playing the Ponce in the next week or two..!

[TEPaul]

Turboe:

My thoughts on Ponce de Leon G.C in St. Augustine about ten minutes ago was only that I'd thought I'd heard of it--it sounded sort of personally familiar.

Then I remembered that my parents lived in St. Augustine from just before WW2 in 1941 until just before I was born in 1944.  

So I thought a Ross course in the same town as my Dad he must have belonged there. I just called my old mother who told me for the first time not two years ago about the two of them sitting by the fire together at the US Am at Pebble with one other nice gentleman who turned out to be Bobby Jones (and then the next day remembered there was another man who she thought was called Samuel Moore--just the four of them).

So I called her and asked if she remembered the Old Ponce de Leon G.C. and she said; "Of course, that was that nice old Ross course along the inland waterway--that's where your Dad played golf, and they had lots of tournaments there."

So I'm very sorry to hear about it's impending demise. I wish I'd been there to see it but I never was. If only my Dad was still around he'd probably know it all. In our entire lives I don't think I ever discussed golf architecture with him one single time and to consider now all he must have known and the courses he'd been to--what a resource he could be now.

He was at Timaquana too but some of those stories I did hear, but only about the hilarious characters and players like the LaFune brothers.

Those were the days--it's sad but money talks!

[Evan Fleisher]

Tommy,

I saw the story last night on Golf Central as well, and there was no mention made of the Ross Society...only a guy from the St. Augustine city council or something saying that the course should be preserved becuase it was a Ross design and therefore a national treasure/landmark.

Apparently, Part 2 of the story will be focusing on the actual site purchaser/developer who claims the site is worth much more as an upscale home site without a golf course, than either the site with both or the site with just the course...so he intends to bulldoze the thing.

It really is a shame, and I wish i had the opportunity to get down there and sample it before it is gone.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Steve L.,

Wasn't the most recent work done by Ron Garl? I read an article by him in which he considers himself very knowledgeable about Ross' work as he has restored some six or more Ross courses.

[Steve L.]

Jim,

I'm not aware that Ron Garl was involved - although I know that several GC Architects have done work there.  I understand that a few years ago some greens & bunkers were tweeked.  I worked a couple of years ago with Bobby Weed's group on planning alternatives on this site for a developer lwho was at the time interested in the property.  The entire property extends significanly beyond the golf course (another 1/4 mile plus marshfront) and includes some abandonded Joe Lee holes which may never have been brought into play as well as a circa 1960's hotel (a bit tired today).  Bobby has a long history/interest in the site and experience with Ross renovation (Timuquana/Univ Florida) and would do a great job.  

[W.H. Cosgrove]

What was the old golf series that used St Augustine for many of its shows?  

Golf channel shows them at 8AM PST.  I spend the off golf season eating breakfast enjoying these old programs.  I love the old Ross design, the greens running a blistering 5 on the stimp and the possibility of using a ground game.  

What a shame that a place with such history will be turned into a bunch of architecture-less monster homes for the retired nouveau riche. Homes they they can't afford in today's market conditions.  

I am a member of the Ross Society and agree completely that the society should be involved in if not saving, at least documenting what remains.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I talked with some of the people in the pro shop including Mary Hafeman the Director of Golf.  I didnt hear anything about Ron Garl either.

Steve L.  You are right the Lee holes 12-13-14 are an unfortunate departure from the flavor of the rest of the course.  I noticed that the three original Ross holes eliminated appear to be still there in some form thier greens being used as part of an pitch and putt course.  It looks like they basically stuck some flags in the fairway in a couple locations down the holes to make shorter holes, utilizing the original green when they get there for one of the holes.

Tommy, I thought they breifly talked to someone from the Ross society at the very beginning of this story last night.  I wish I would have recorded it and seen the entire thing I kind of came in at the beginning not paying quite as close of attention as I should have.

[Steve L.]

Turboe,

The shame of it is that the three holes near the entry are terrific when played as real holes - as opposed to the pitch & putt variety.  The par 3 is particularly stout - 200+ yards to a narrow green with nasty greenside bunkers - and the next hole is a med-long par 4 dogleg left to another nicely bunkered green...  It's a little exposed to the entry and Highway, but really fun golf!  And - should be Holes 10-11-12.  

[Mitch Hantman]

The story on Golf Central this morning DID show Michael Fay being interviewed.  He is one of the officers with the Donald Ross Society.  Therefore they are aware of it, but I didn't get the impression that he was able to do anything about it.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Well, If any of you down in the Sunshine state really want to have a go at it, I'm game, so let me suggest this.

Being that I'm some 3000+/- miles away and have never been to Florida, I'm not really credible, but some of you definitely sound like you are. First, get the name of the City Council member that wants to preserve it. If some of you are members of the Ross Society, get in touch with Michael Faye and see if he has done anything at all about the situation which might give a head start. (I doubt it.) See if he will share any of the information or at least join in the fight.
Third, and maybe Paul Turner can be of some help, Find out if the USGA can be a service with pictures, images, maps etc. of PDL. I'm sure the city has a archives or Historical Society, find out what time they are open and if they can be of help with the same--You need all of the information you can get on the subject. Maybe the City Councilman can be of GREAT help in that department. Most Historical Society's want to do eerything they can to help with protecting anything old and historic.

This is just the first series of steps--anyone want to help, it would be appreciated.

I'll also talk to Brad Klein.

[Steve L.]

Another note - recent within the past week or two...

St. Johns County considered purchasing the golf course, and recently decided it was not financially viable - a 17-year breakeven as I understand...  Seems that I remember the sales price at $5.5 mil and estimated renovations at $4.5 mil.

[frank_D]

as i posted this sale info jan 24 03 on the tory pines resort thread - i also wrote a response to a florida golf news editorial which appeared in the feb 2003 publication

ECONOMICS will dictate the future of ALL golf courses - this is just the tip of the iceberg

as an aside however on this particular course - among the "beneficiaries" of the ponce closing are WGV and TPC-Sawgrass which are in the same market as well as Marsh Creek a private club across the street owned by the same developer so DON'T expect any help on this one - you see by getting rid of a low cost alternative (the ponce) only the high priced alternatives (above) remain so tourists will HAVE TO pay $$$$ to play - while some may say i'm overly cynical - well maybe - i just HATE a tourist draw to the "oldest" city not be supported by having the "oldest" course remain - but if the county or state doesn't step in prodded by the constituency - its gone - just like the nickle root-beer

unless buried ancient indian bones are found in graves as in a cemetery on the property [in miami the city had to purchase the property AND pay the developer his anticipate profit plus original cost and carrying expenses of the land ($63MM)]

[Craig_Dex]

Those interested should also contact PGA Tour Headquarters and see if they would be interested in assisting the preservation.

Saving and renovating a course like that could be a great project for them.  Think of all the things they could do with a course like this:
- Host a Champion's Tour event there
- Have the course affiliated with the World Golf Village, for use among guests, or as a draw to lure more visitors
- Use it as a host course for stage one Q-school
- Use it as a place to film and produce PGA Tour Productions projects

They've got the money, they've got the wherewithal to do it, and they might just have the passion - particularly if this could be a money maker in the long run.

Hey, the worst they can say is "no."

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Unfortunately as mentioned above by Frank, I think if anything they may want to see it go the other direction since they have interests in TPC Sawgrass.  Who is behind WGV is that the PGA Tour as well?

Also there is a new upscale development probably no more than 3-4 miles up the road that just opened and is starting to sell lots called Palencia Club with a new Art Hills course.

[Steve L.]

Frank,

I don't think that TPC will be affected by the Ponce's closing, nor Marsh Creek (it's not daily fee), and WGV only slightly.  What I do understand (according to local developers/golf operators) is that the Ponce affects some of the mid-range ($50/round+/-) courses because the Ponce offers a lower-priced alternative...  

[Steve L.]

The PGA Tour will not be affected either way - but the folks at PGA Tour headquarters are golf people who appreciate the game, and all things considered probably hope the course survives and thrives.  

Having said that - they have no vested interest in its success and the Ponce de Leon would not make a great tournament course nowadays.  Today's galleries couldn't be well accomodated, parking would be brutal, and the needs of the corporate & hospitality crowd couldn't be accomodated well.  

The PGA Tour is a partner in World Golf Village - and so is Shell, as are other corporate entities.  The Legends of Golf has been played at WGV the past three or four years - and it is a viable tournament site, but public focus is gobbled up by The Players Championship.  Suffice to say - World Golf Village and PGA Tour people I'm certain hate to see a course with such tradition close, but they have no economic incentive to financially back it's preservation.

I hope the current owner steps up to the plate and makes a heroic manuever - recognizes the opportunity this course presents, and the opportunity to create a memorable residential community in concert with this (potentially) great golf course.  As a counterpoint to the riot of Golf Cart & GPS ridden golf options, the Ponce de Leon has a story of tradition (and an AMAZING SITE) for a great golf and residential community.  

Seems worth a try anyhow..

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Just added info on the front 9 to my original post...

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Here is the information on the back nine, it wouldnt let me add this to my initial post.

Crossing the small bridge and heading towards the current 10th tee you bypass what was once the original 10th tee as Ross laid it out.  The land holding the original 10th, 11th, and 12th has been converted to a par 3 / Pitch & Putt course integrating the original 3 greens as well as some impromptu greens built at various locations along the way.  This returns you to the original 13th tee box which is now the 10th.  Ironically the flow off of the 9th green to this current 10th hole does not seem too out of place it flows farily well.

The 10th is a  509yd par 5 playing into the prevailing wind, but much less noticeable as you are now beginning to get back more into some protected pine woods.  This hole is protected by a small stand of trees down the left hand side only.  A large fairway bunker on the left hand side guards the driving area, and a cross bunker probably 40-50yds short of the green creates more than enough strategy on the second shot to keep your attention.

I know that I heard that Joe Lee added the current 12th, 13th, and 14th holes to make up for the holes taken out of play for the pitch and putt, but I couldn’t help but wonder as I played the 405yd par 4 11th whether someone had done some major changes to this hole as well as it just did not seem to fit with the flavor of the other holes.  Maybe it is just due to all the years and encroachment of the trees over the years.  The tee shot feels claustrophobic coming out of a chute of pine trees over a lake.  The second shot plays to a difficult green set hard against a small pond on the back and left side of the green.

From here you proceed back into a small loop of three holes back in the woods that are quite obviously done by someone other than Ross.  The holes have a much more modern or artificial feel to them.

The 12th is a long par 4 of 416yds guarded by a lake on the right of the landing area and pinched by a fairway bunker on the left.

The 13th is a long and tough par three playing 212yds from the back tees.  The green is well bunkered, and the land falls away on all sides, especially on the left side which falls off into the woods.  A very long and difficult par 3.

The par 5 14th measuring 498yds is fairly straightforward and should be a easy birdie opportunity.  Although after carring a small pond directly in front of the tee box, all but the longest of hitters will probably opt to lay up short of the lake fronting the green as there is no way to get to this green without being all carry over this lake.  A proper layup though should put you in position for an easy pitch and birde opportunity on this green sloping from back to front.

From here a short jaunt back out of the pine trees places you out on the windswept area of the front nine at the 15th tee.  A 387yd par 4 which doglegs slightly to the right.  It is refreshing to come back out of the woods into the wind for the final 4 holes.

The par 3 16th reverses back slightly into the prevailing wind, but more influenced right to left.  Playing 177 yards with a carry over a small pond in front it is sufficiently challenging.

The tee shot on the 17th may be the best on the golf course.  From the back tees this hole plays as a slight dogleg or cape hole to the left.  The inside of the fairway on the left the entire way is a long and narrow lake that continues all the way up the right side of the home hole as well.  Again as on many holes out here the only bunkers on the hole may be found on the opposite side of the hole from the water hazard.  Both a fairway bunker and greenside bunker on the right hand side keep those of you who desire to stay away from the water honest.  It is wonderful the frugal use of bunkering, but just the right amount and placed where they need to be to keep the course from being defenseless.

The home hole is a 391yd par 4.  Playing again with water down the left hand side the entire way, and a fairway bunker right and two substantial greenside bunkers front and back right.  This green has some nice undulation to it, and provides a decent if not overpowering finishing hole.

Overall Ponce DeLeon Resort is a fun place to take a step back in time.  Could it challenge todays players probably not.  Is it tournament caliber anymore, again I would say no, but it is a fun place to play a reasonable round of golf, and in some of the prettiest settings you can find anywhere (at much higher prices).  You can tell by walking through the facilities that time (and major money infusions) have passed the resort by.  But you get the feel that the pictures of some of the famous people who have played out there (and there have been a lot) have been hanging on the wall since that very day.  TGC story noted some precourser tournament to the PGA tour played out there for years.  The names of Hagen, Nelson, and Hogan graced the winner’s trophy there.  Presidents, and kings played there.  Indeed at one time it was “the place to be”.  It will be sad to see its passing if that happens.  And I for one am very glad that I had the honor of teeing  it up for a cold, windy, but unforgettable day there.  

I hope something good can still come out of this.  It sounds like there still is a chance that the course could be saved.

[Steve L.]

Turboe,

You'll be interested to know a few nuances about the original routing which are different from your assumptions based on original Donald Ross drawings.  Your hole descriptions were very good - inspired me to clear my Friday afternoon calendar!!!

Clubhouse - Original location was across the bridge, located behind the current #9 green.  The practice range played to the south, along a broad peninsula set into the marsh.  The clubhouse was a very attractive building which burned down sometime around the 1970's.  Incidentally, tucked back in the trees to the right of hole 9 is a partially run-down barn which formerly served as the maintenance building...

Hole 1 - As played today

Hole 2 - Formerly a short par 4 played from a tee to the right of #1 green to the existing greensite.

Hole 3 - Formerly a long par 4 played from tees roughly located in the causeway between lakes.  The lake beside the current #3 tee was created much later.

Hole 4 - As played today, and well described by Turboe.  A real brut.

Hole 5 - A short par 3 played the opposite direction of the current hole, played roughly toward the current forward tee on hole 3.  Severely bunkered according to Ross drawings.

Hole 6 - A risk/reward par 4 played as a sharp dogleg right around the cove to a green slightly left of the current #5 greensite.  The severe mound behind the current hole 5, and bunkers were built by Desmond Muirhead.

Hole 7 - A par 5 played where current #6 is located.  The original tees were on the current #5 green.  A great greensite tucked into the windswept Maritime Oaks.

Hole 8 - Played roughly from the current #7 tee to the current #15 green.  Another par 5 (back to back).  Very strategic hole in a wide corridor.

Hole 9 - Pretty par 3 playing toward the forest away from the marsh over a pond - current #16.

Hole 10 - Current Hole 17, but at a great angle from forward tee - really good short par 4 w/terrific bunkering...

Hole 11 - Current #18.

Hole 12 - Short par 4 along entry drive (1st hole of the current pitch & putt)

Hole 13 - Long par 3 along highway (2nd hole of the current pitch & putt)

Hole 14 - Long par 4 dogleg left (3rd hole of current pitch & putt)

Hole 15 - Current #10.  Terrific par 5

Hole 16 - Par 3 which played from a tee behind current #10 green to a greensite approximately 50 yards right of current #11 tee.  (Turboe - you were right about #11, it IS different and is not original, but still a good hole).  If you walk through the overgrown woods and look around, you can find the overgrown greensite!!!

Hole 17 - Current #8.

Hole 18 - Current #9 back to the original clubhouse site, but the original played as an abrupt dogleg right to a green next to the current pedestrian/cart bridge (a practice green & bunkers is currently where the old #18 green was).  The current #9 green is roughly the site of the original practice green.

Original par sequence was

4 4 4 4 3 4 5 5 3 - 36       4 4 4 3 4 5 3 4 4 - 35 - 71 tot.
non-returning nines.

Obviously the hotel, condominiums, current clubhouse, etc. came much later.  Some evidence exists that this once was expanded by Ross to 27 holes, but it's hard to confirm the specifics of the addtiional nine.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Wow Steve thanks for that post.  That was awesome to walk through the holes as you described them and compare them to the new layout.  

I was most surprised by your comments on #5 originally playing completely different.  I knew the shaping and bulkheading were obviously not Ross, but I thought someone had talked like Muirhead had defaced a Ross classic hole that played basically the same way but was given a face lift.  It sounds like it was given more than a facelift, it was given a completely new identity.

You may have mentioned this earlier, but where are you from (you said 15 min is that JAX?), and how far back does your playing knowledge of this course go?  Where do you get this older information, did you have a father who played out there or something?

Depending on what happens in the coming months I hope to get back there another time before it goes away.  I guess I am just an softie when it comes to things like this.  I get down to the JAX area every couple months at least, on business so I should be able to make it happen.  (Finally got out to play Hyde Park on my last trip) Especially once daylight savings time rolls around.

I would love to play the course with you, if I get a chance to play it again.  That would be a pleasure.

Talking with Mary Hafeman was also a pleasure, she is a nice lady, who cares about the historical treasure that she is watching over.  She is however also a realist, and doesn't know what can be done.  Having just watched installment #2 on The Golf Channel I am intersted in seeing installment #3 although I will be on the road and better make sure my hotel gets TGC.

[Steve L.]

Turboe,

The 5th was the most awkward hole on the original layout, a short (135ish yard) long par 3.  But the 6th was unbelievable, essentially a double fairway par 4 wrapping around the cove.  Looking at it now it seems so unlikely - and it was tight.

I don't have an exhaustive playing knowledge of the course - I lived in this area about 4 years - although I've played it several times.  I'm a partner in a planning & architectural firm and I did numerous planning alternatives on this property two years ago for a prospective developer who was considering purchasing the property and restoring the golf course.  We worked with Bobby Weed and his group on a "hybrid" restoration (routing & real estate development).  Given the significance of the heritage of the site, we tried to learn as much as we could about the history of the place.  That developer elected not to move forward with the purchase of the property.  

There used to be (and I think there still is) a copy of an original routing plan of the "St. Augustine Links" by Donald Ross framed in the Member's Lounge of the golf club.  It's well worth looking at.  We had it "unframed" and scanned it a couple of years ago - I have a copy and I'll try to find it (although my work on the Ponce was prior to forming our firm).

I live 15 minutes northwest of the Ponce de Leon - south of Jacksonville and west of Interstate 95.  Let me know next time you will be in the area - hopefully the Ponce will be there to play!

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Bringing this back up to the top to jive with the new Ponce thread that started.

[John Conley]

As often happens on the board, I completely miss a thread I would have interest in because I had no idea what it was about.

I don't know what constitutes "historic", but I am aware that an old course near St. Augustine is closing.  It has some significance to me in that my now-wife lined up a round of golf for me when we took a weekend in St. Augustine at a Bed & Breakfast.  It was the first - and will definitely be the last - round of golf my wife supports me playing, so much so that she even paid for it as a surprise to me.

The course is/was fine, but I will shed no tears for its loss.  The state of Florida only needs about 200 more course closings to make the whole industry better.  Like the joke about attorneys, "it's a start."

Literally hundreds of courses were lost in the 30s and 40s.  Some of them designed by architects we now revere.  So what if this one is lost now?  If it were Ross's best, there'd be no funeral as it would be a popular destination resort.  The course is good, with some nice holes.  The most stunning part is that it is one of very few Florida courses where you can lose a ball in saltwater.  Yet it died.

The problem will go down in the books as an example not of Ponce De Leon's weakness, but the flaws in a business decision to open a ton of new courses ad nauseum.  Ponce is not that far North of Palm Coast and not too far South and East of the World Golf Village.  No surprise something had to give, and just this one closing won't immediately make it that much better for all the nearby courses.

I'd never say, "Good riddance," over the loss of this one - for I genuinely did like the layout.  But I won't be mourning and actually hope the land is put to better use, possibly inspiring other Florida owners to follow suit.