Augusta National 5th getting 40 more yards

[Jeff Schley]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/augusta-national-lengthens-fifth-hole-by-40-yards-ahead-of-2019-masters

[Kalen Braley]

Its "only" the 5th hardest hole in cumulative Master history.  Of course this makes perfect sense to make it more difficult.

http://2018.masters.com/en_US/course/hole5.html

[Alex Miller]

Its "only" the 5th hardest hole in cumulative Master history.  Of course this makes perfect sense to make it more difficult.

http://2018.masters.com/en_US/course/hole5.html

Not sure if you're sarcastic but won't this make it more of a half par hole now?


I know most here aren't on board with the "sacrilegious" changes to ANGC over the years, but they feel that they have a clear duty to protect the integrity of certain shots on the golf course, and yes par as well. If players could bomb driver over the bunkers that would really screw up how that hole plays (like when Tiger was hitting PW into 15 in '97), so I am curious to see how this change shakes out. Might be some good foresight on their part.

[Kalen Braley]

Alex,


Yes to the first part.


As to the second bit, that's the part I can't figure. Its already playing more than a quarter stroke harder than par on average, what exactly do you think is being protected?

[Carson Pilcher]

Its "only" the 5th hardest hole in cumulative Master history.  Of course this makes perfect sense to make it more difficult.

http://2018.masters.com/en_US/course/hole5.html

Not sure if you're sarcastic but won't this make it more of a half par hole now?


I know most here aren't on board with the "sacrilegious" changes to ANGC over the years, but they feel that they have a clear duty to protect the integrity of certain shots on the golf course, and yes par as well. If players could bomb driver over the bunkers that would really screw up how that hole plays (like when Tiger was hitting PW into 15 in '97), so I am curious to see how this change shakes out. Might be some good foresight on their part.

It sounds from Mr. Jones that the original intent of the hole was to allow the player to drive past the bunkers on the left.... "The proper line here is as closely as possible past the bunker on the left side of the fairway. It is not necessary to carry this bunker in order to direct the drive into a groove in the fairway on top of the hill. But it is a very comforting safety factor to have sufficient length for the carry should the shot be pulled slightly. The bunker and the woods to the left of it usually represent dire disaster.  BOBBY JONES on Augusta National’s 5th"

[Kalen Braley]

Looks like they're going across old beckmans road, unless they're going to tee off over #4...


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Augusta+National+Golf+Club/@33.5017789,-82.0286853,185m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88f9cd9fe8a776ed:0x519b380162b90517!8m2!3d33.5021365!4d-82.0226276

[Mike Hendren]

This does not bode well for the future of the Olive Garden.

[Eric LeFante]

Its "only" the 5th hardest hole in cumulative Master history.  Of course this makes perfect sense to make it more difficult.

http://2018.masters.com/en_US/course/hole5.html

Not sure if you're sarcastic but won't this make it more of a half par hole now?


I know most here aren't on board with the "sacrilegious" changes to ANGC over the years, but they feel that they have a clear duty to protect the integrity of certain shots on the golf course, and yes par as well. If players could bomb driver over the bunkers that would really screw up how that hole plays (like when Tiger was hitting PW into 15 in '97), so I am curious to see how this change shakes out. Might be some good foresight on their part.

It sounds from Mr. Jones that the original intent of the hole was to allow the player to drive past the bunkers on the left.... "The proper line here is as closely as possible past the bunker on the left side of the fairway. It is not necessary to carry this bunker in order to direct the drive into a groove in the fairway on top of the hill. But it is a very comforting safety factor to have sufficient length for the carry should the shot be pulled slightly. The bunker and the woods to the left of it usually represent dire disaster.  BOBBY JONES on Augusta National’s 5th"

Looks like Augusta moved the bunkers closer to the tee so that the carry over them is still 315 yards, the same as last year.


https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2019/1/30/first-at-least-graphically-depicted-look-at-augusta-nationals-extended-5th-hole



Phil Mickelson made a very interesting comment last year when a writer asked his opinion of moving 5 tee back; he was fine with the idea and likes the concept of making the hard holes very hard but having holes where you can make up ground, which there certainly are at Augusta.


Based on Ran's thread about Pinehurst #2's reachable par 5s but very difficult par 3s, doesn't Phil make a great point?


Kalen, if it was Bobby Jones's intent to have the player hit a long iron into this green, which it certainly was, why not strive for that? The Road Hole played way over par at 455 yards but they still added 30+ yards for the last Open held there in 2015. Even at 495 yards, players still wont have a long enough club in to hit a low shot that lands on the front of the green and runs up the mound to the back portion of the green.

I don't want to be viewed as radical, but to truly play the way Jones intended, it needs to be even longer. The stroke average may be too high then but only because the green is way too fast considering the slope, which proves the point that tournament organizers are trying to combat shorter clubs than intended into greens with faster green speeds than intended based on the way they were built, which is why scoring averages aren't ridiculously low today vs 40 years ago.

[Jason Topp]

Kalen, if it was Bobby Jones's intent to have the player hit a long iron into this green, which it certainly was, why not strive for that? The Road Hole played way over par at 455 yards but they still added 30+ yards for the last Open held there in 2015. Even at 495 yards, players still wont have a long enough club in to hit a low shot that lands on the front of the green and runs up the mound to the back portion of the green.

I don't want to be viewed as radical, but to truly play the way Jones intended, it needs to be even longer. The stroke average may be too high then but only because the green is way too fast considering the slope, which proves the point that tournament organizers are trying to combat shorter clubs than intended into greens with faster green speeds than intended based on the way they were built, which is why scoring averages aren't ridiculously low today vs 40 years ago.

Eric:


You have the original intent wrong.  His original intent was for the hole to play like 18 at The Old Course.  It played at 365 yards or less until 2002. 


Here is one source on the hole's history:  https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-complete-changes-to-augusta-national

[Kalen Braley]

Eric,


Its simple and we've been saying it for years....Masters limited-flight ball.  They just re-did this hole a few years back to make those bunkers nasty, and its already obsolete...again (at least according to the green jackets). 

[Eric LeFante]

Eric,


Its simple and we've been saying it for years....Masters limited-flight ball.  They just re-did this hole a few years back to make those bunkers nasty, and its already obsolete...again (at least according to the green jackets).

I completely agree

[Eric LeFante]

Kalen, if it was Bobby Jones's intent to have the player hit a long iron into this green, which it certainly was, why not strive for that? The Road Hole played way over par at 455 yards but they still added 30+ yards for the last Open held there in 2015. Even at 495 yards, players still wont have a long enough club in to hit a low shot that lands on the front of the green and runs up the mound to the back portion of the green.

I don't want to be viewed as radical, but to truly play the way Jones intended, it needs to be even longer. The stroke average may be too high then but only because the green is way too fast considering the slope, which proves the point that tournament organizers are trying to combat shorter clubs than intended into greens with faster green speeds than intended based on the way they were built, which is why scoring averages aren't ridiculously low today vs 40 years ago.

Eric:


You have the original intent wrong.  His original intent was for the hole to play like 18 at The Old Course.  It played at 365 yards or less until 2002. 


Here is one source on the hole's history:  https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-complete-changes-to-augusta-national

Jason, I think you are referring to the 7th hole.

[Eric LeFante]

Here is a fantastic article from Geoff Shackelford, Golf Digest 2010:



https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf-shackelford-old-course-0405


While the combination of course changes, equipment advances and softer approaches blurs the intended ties to St. Andrews, Watson has little doubt that the ability to play Old Course-style approach shots once existed as the architects intended.

"Byron Nelson told me that when he played he had to run the ball onto many of the greens," the two-time Masters winner said. "The fifth hole was long enough that you had to play a 3- or a 4-iron, and you ran the ball up the slope to try and keep the ball on the green there."

[Mike Hendren]

I'm under the impression that the 5th was inspired by The Road Hole at The Old Course.  I'll check my books tonight.

Mike

[jeffwarne]

Kalen, if it was Bobby Jones's intent to have the player hit a long iron into this green, which it certainly was, why not strive for that? The Road Hole played way over par at 455 yards but they still added 30+ yards for the last Open held there in 2015. Even at 495 yards, players still wont have a long enough club in to hit a low shot that lands on the front of the green and runs up the mound to the back portion of the green.

I don't want to be viewed as radical, but to truly play the way Jones intended, it needs to be even longer. The stroke average may be too high then but only because the green is way too fast considering the slope, which proves the point that tournament organizers are trying to combat shorter clubs than intended into greens with faster green speeds than intended based on the way they were built, which is why scoring averages aren't ridiculously low today vs 40 years ago.

Eric:


You have the original intent wrong.  His original intent was for the hole to play like 18 at The Old Course.  It played at 365 yards or less until 2002. 


Here is one source on the hole's history:  https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-complete-changes-to-augusta-national

The 5th at ANGC was intended to play like 18 at TOC?
5 at ANGC was 440 uphill in 1934.
Are you thinking of 7?

[Jim Nugent]

Kalen, if it was Bobby Jones's intent to have the player hit a long iron into this green, which it certainly was, why not strive for that? The Road Hole played way over par at 455 yards but they still added 30+ yards for the last Open held there in 2015. Even at 495 yards, players still wont have a long enough club in to hit a low shot that lands on the front of the green and runs up the mound to the back portion of the green.

I don't want to be viewed as radical, but to truly play the way Jones intended, it needs to be even longer. The stroke average may be too high then but only because the green is way too fast considering the slope, which proves the point that tournament organizers are trying to combat shorter clubs than intended into greens with faster green speeds than intended based on the way they were built, which is why scoring averages aren't ridiculously low today vs 40 years ago.

Eric:


You have the original intent wrong.  His original intent was for the hole to play like 18 at The Old Course.  It played at 365 yards or less until 2002. 


Here is one source on the hole's history:  https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-complete-changes-to-augusta-national

The 5th at ANGC was intended to play like 18 at TOC?
5 at ANGC was 440 uphill in 1934.
Are you thinking of 7?

I'm almost sure Jeff is right: Mackenzie patterned #7 after #18 at TOC.  IIRC #7 even had its version of the Valley of Sin. 

[Jason Topp]

Sorry - my brain must have gotten its wires crossed. For some reason I thought 7 was the hole.


I agree lengthening 5 makes sense given no one is going to do anything about the golf ball.   When I watched a practice round, many pros were opting for a 3 wood off that tee. 

[Roman Schwarz]

At least in the case of the 5th, they can move the bunker along with the tee to restore the integrity of both the 1st and 2nd shot.  Unfortunately on 13 they can't move the creek, the dogleg, the fairway slope, the forest on the left, trees on the right....


It's too bad it would be easier to do all that construction than to limit the ball so that Titleist, Srixon, Taylormade, and Callaway couldn't all run commercials to tell about the SPEED! and DISTANCE! of their new balls.

[jeffwarne]

At least in the case of the 5th, they can move the bunker along with the tee to restore the integrity of both the 1st and 2nd shot.  Unfortunately on 13 they can't move the creek, the dogleg, the fairway slope, the forest on the left, trees on the right....

No, they just bought the 9th hole of the club next door instead.


You'd think with the technology available to enhance the the ball, that the USGA could grow some

[Wade Whitehead]

Looks like spectators (er, patrons) won't really be able to watch tee shots on 5 anymore.

A friend who played the tournament told me that you wouldn't believe how quiet the 13th tee is.  I wonder if #5 will be like that now.


WW

[Kalen Braley]

I'm just wondering if they got Old Beckmans shut down yet...all the aerials I've seen show the street is still open with zero activity over the street or a new tee box otherwise.  Maybe they'll just put down a platform with a mat on the other side of 4 for the tourney! 

[jeffwarne]

I'm just wondering if they got Old Beckmans shut down yet...all the aerials I've seen show the street is still open with zero activity over the street or a new tee box otherwise.  Maybe they'll just put down a platform with a mat on the other side of 4 for the tourney! 

Old Berkman's been closed for at least 2 years. They rerouted it quite a while back.
I drove by new #5 tee-you definitely see new trees and shrubs(which of course look quite mature) just about where the road was.
You couldn't really spectate on 5 tee anyway for the past few years since the 2002 lengthening.
Used to be able to get behind 4 green and watch 5 tee.
I think there may be room for spectators now as the tee is further right than before and back, opening some room between the tee and 4 green.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,


This is the latest pic on Google Maps, and it shows no new tee. I used Google Earth to measure and it shows it at 450 or so to the middle of the green from the back of that rear tee box.  They're talking about stretching it out to 490ish so they must be adding something new that either plays over 4 green or is back where the street is.


P.S.  That street looks unmodified in this picture as its straight and connects up perfectly off the main strip to the north. I also confirmed this is exactly what shows on Bing Maps. Additionally, if you look at streetside on Bing maps, you can see cars on that road.  Its possible all of these satellite shots are more than a few years old, but i doubt it...they update them fairly frequently.

P.P.S.  Beckmans road just to the west of there shows as being long gone, but Old Beckmans is still very much intact.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,


This is the latest pic on Google Maps, and it shows no new tee. I used Google Earth to measure and it shows it at 450 or so to the middle of the green from the back of that rear tee box.  They're talking about stretching it out to 490ish so they must be adding something new that either plays over 4 green or is back where the street is.


P.S.  That street looks unmodified in this picture as its straight and connects up perfectly off the main strip to the north. I also confirmed this is exactly what shows on Bing Maps. Additionally, if you look at streetside on Bing maps, you can see cars on that road.  Its possible all of these satellite shots are more than a few years old, but i doubt it...they update them fairly frequently.

P.P.S.  Beckmans road just to the west of there shows as being long gone, but Old Beckmans is still very much intact.

Kalen,
I just looked up my house on Google Maps.
It shows a jet ski I sold in Dec 2103.
Surely you don't think Google's satellite is a worthy way to dispute the fact that 2 weeks ago  I saw #5 tee and a whole bunch of new trees/landscaping across/on the former Berkman's Road?
That very outdated Google picture doesn't even show the new entrance/massive infrastructure buildings which are on the West side of Berkmann's up towards Washington Road and are two years old.



A bit of confusion
There is no such road as
"Old Berkmann" (It's not like Old Collier)It's just labeled like that-though it still shows on their outdated image
 The label on the image to the west "Berkmann's Road" isn't long gone in that picture, the reroute is just not even born yet(the picture's that old)- they drew the lines in and labeled it for map purposes-where those labels are on the picture to the west is where it actually currently is-I just drove on it and it's super wide(would DEFINITELY show up on an aerial) with a large elevated bridge and much bigger than the former Berkman's-which wasn't "old" when this photo was taken, but actually was Berkman's Road and was still in use at that time-at least 4 years ago.


If you need further proof it's not current-scroll to the east and you'll see Augusta CC still has their old 9th fairway and the forest to the left of it.
Both are now gone and the th hole is where the forest is-which is completely gone.
Or scroll further east and you might see 16 year old me hitting balls on the range at ACC


your picture also clearly shows there were few to no spectating options on #5 after the 2002 lengthening-there may be some now as the tee is further right (from the player's perspective)

[Kalen Braley]

Damn it Jeff,

Sometimes I hate it when you're right! Must be more variability in which parts gets updated than I thought.  I have seen new features around the SLC area that have been put in over the last year, that already show up in aerials.

P.S. I've got Googles CEO on speed dial, he is going to hear about this!