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Richard Fisher

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Harlech v Porthcawl
« on: January 22, 2019, 04:58:10 PM »
Harlech v Porthcawl

Inspired by the Silloth v Goswick challenge and by Sean’s various course matches over the years, I thought I would try the same thing for the two most famous links in Wales. Full disclaimer here – I have been a member of one (Harlech) for over fifty years, and the other for nearly a decade, although I had played at RPGC many times prior to becoming a member. I am utterly biased, but I do think that, in very different ways, both are great golf clubs as clubs, and present a memorable golfing experience at every level (fun, setting, atmosphere, and challenge), well worth their inclusion in Ran’s 147.

Porthcawl is generally regarded as ‘the best course in Wales’, although it’s worth stating that it’s only a decade or since the Golf World rankings (back when they were compiled rather differently from today) routinely placed Harlech a notch or two above Porthcawl, comfortably within the Top Forty in Britain (and indeed the Top Thirty, from time to time), and there were and are plenty of Welsh golfers, especially in the north of the principality, who would concur.

As for potential rivals, some GCA friends will know that I am not quite sound (in GCA terms) on Pennard, which I like but don’t love in the way Ran and others on this site do.  And to me Aberdovey is a lovely, extremely enjoyable and historic links without quite the heft of its Merionethshire neighbour: Aberdovey (to use a poetic formulation of WH Auden that I have borrowed before) is a Great Minor Golf Course, but Harlech is a Minor Great Golf Course. I know that various GCA regulars will already be writing off this posting as the unbalanced ravings of a crazed man, but I shall have to learn to live with that.

It’s also fair to say in recent years both the rising water table (and consequent irrigation issues) and economic decline have hit Harlech hard, with the two derelict buildings behind the 16th spoiling what is otherwise one of the great golf-scapes in Britain. Their continued presence within a National Park is astonishing, and sad testimony to the very limited power (and resources) of local authorities.

Anyway, let’s begin (and not unimportantly we are playing this match off the white tees)

Hole One
Harlech starts with a stern 440 yard dogleg slightly right, with a fairway that (as Ran’s photographs in the GCA course profile suggest) is much more undulant that might be anticipated from the tee, but Porthcawl wins with one of the most beguiling opening holes in the UK: a drive and pitch beside the sea to a brilliant, and very tricky, green site. RPGC One Up.
Hole Two
Porthcawl’s second has long been lauded as perhaps the best second hole in Britain, again right by the sea with a testing drive over a cross-bunker and a spectacular dropping second shot to another challenging green site, right by the sea.
Against this Harlech’s flat 346-yard legger may not seem very much, although I have always thought this a particularly nicely balanced golf hole: in a perfect world the ditch that features in the rough about 100 yards out would be opened up right across the second fairway, not least to lend much greater strategic challenge to the drive, but for all sorts of reasons that is not going to happen. RPGC Two up.
Hole Three
This is where something like a contest begins to emerge. Porthcawl’s third is again hard by the sea, almost equally spectacular, and offers a not dissimilar but slightly shorter (and easier) challenge to its predecessor. Harlech’s third is a very clever, tough 468 yard par four (absolutely a Bogey Five), very well protected off the tee and with (as Sean Arble noticed some years ago) some extremely clever fairway bunkering about sixty yards out. The dangerous line here is down the right, guarded all the way down by OB, and this is also the correct line into the smallest green on the course, especially when the flag is in the medal position on the left-hand side of the green. This is a cracking hole and RStD wins its first of the day. RPGC one up.
Hole Four
Two very strong short holes compete, Porthcawl’s slightly dropping to a very long and sloping green on which four putts is quite legitimate, Harlech’s to a raised green with plenty of trouble behind. Both are tee shots to which the player always looks forward. Halved, and RPGC remains one up.
Hole Five
This is the first of Porthcawl’s par fives, heading inland and uphill. Nobody would claim, I think, that its three-shot holes are the special glory of Porthcawl, although this requires (for mid-handicap players like me) three careful shots to a sloping green that had to be remodelled to accommodate modern green speeds. Harlech’s fifth is a straight 380 yards with a tough, well-protected drive and a large, flattish green. This hole perfectly the sums up a key difference between the two courses: off the tee RStD is, I think, notably more demanding but from 100 yards in Porthcawl really shows its teeth. RPGC just has this, and goes two up.
Hole Six
Two holes of similar lengths, and the two most inland holes on both properties: both are much stronger holes than might superficially seem the case from the tee, with Porthcawl’s requiring the dangerous line to the right to gain access to most pins. Harlech’s sixth is, I think, one of the relatively unsung gems of Welsh golf – a very well protected drive requiring care and thought, and an attractive pitch to one of the best and most challenging green sites on the property. One back for Harlech, and RPGC back to one up.
Hole Seven
I think Harlech’s seventh is (in most winds) the best par-five on either course. Another demanding drive into the prevailing wind, a very strategic fairway bunker en route, and the only raised-up putting green on the links. Porthcawl’s little seventh is a very nice hole to a kidney-shaped green beset with bunkers, but Harlech takes this to get back to all square.
Hole Eight
Two shortish par fives compete, and Porthcawl wins with its provocative bunkering about 100 yards out, forcing the classic mid-handicap dilemma of laying up or going for the carry. To me this is the best of the RPGC three-shotters, and this wins to put RPGC one up again: prior to WW2 Harlech’s eighth was routed significantly to the right of the present fairway, over cross bunkers to a green thirty yards beyond the present one in what is now an OB area outside the property. That old version might have threatened Porthcawl’s eighth, and would also have changed the orientation of the hole that follows.
Hole Nine
Porthcawl’s celebrated ninth is one of the best mid-length par fours anywhere, with an amazing green site (recently modified, for similar reasons to the fifth) and sees off Harlech’s short ninth – perfectly decent and showing the golfer the big sandhills for the first time, with the most sloping green on the entire course, but (post-war) too similar a stroke in both length and direction to the fourth for absolutely perfection. Porthcawl wins and RPGC goes to the turn two up.
Hole Ten
Famously the game is really on with the back nine at Harlech, which shows its teeth straightaway with a demanding drive into the prevailing wind, and another strong second to a huge green in the lee of a sandhill. Porthcawl’s tenth is a cunning drive-and-pitch with another exposed green site, but I think Harlech wins this and RPGC is brought back to one up.
Hole Eleven
Two enticing short holes and Porthcawl’s (‘superb’ – Tom Simpson) beats Harlech’s (‘nice little hole – Frank Pennink). RPGC back to two up.
Hole Twelve
One of two uphill three-shotters on the back nine at Porthcawl, to a newish and demanding green about 100 yards further on from its previous site, but I vote for Harlech’s two-shot twelth, 436 yards from an elevated tee in the sandhills driving directly towards Harlech castle, and a deceptive second to a green that runs away from the player. Harlech wins and RPGC one up again.
Hole Thirteen
Two splendid longish par-fours compete. Porthcawl’s has a wonderful second shot, downhill back towards the sea, but so does Harlech’s, much flatter but no less compelling (‘a beauty’ – Jim Finegan) and (as the 2nd) this is an exceptionally well balanced golf hole. A very classy half. RPGC still one up.
Hole Fourteen
Two strong short holes compete again. Porthcawl’s dropping 150-yarder is rightly acclaimed, and some people revere Harlech’s very tough, semi-blind bunkerless 220-yarder through the dunes: others preferred it when it was a fully blind shot over Prestwickian sleepers. RPGC wins to go back to two up.
Hole Fifteen
Two exceptional par fours, but Porthcawl’s (one of the best in Wales, with one of the toughest drives on the course) is beaten by Harlech’s (one of the best in the world, and also one of the best bunkerless holes in the world), with another very demanding carry off the tee into the prevailing wind and a long, dropping semi-blind second. Harlech wins and RPGC is back to one up.
Hole Sixteen
Tricky. The aforementioned backdrop of ruined buildings behind Harlech’s sixteenth spoils the vista of what is a lovely shortish par four, with yet another demanding drive towards one of the most bunkered targets on the links. The new back tee at 16 has restored the view of the sea that was (when Patric Dickinson was writing in the early 1950s) an important aspect of this hole. Porthcawl’s 16th has a tough uphill carry over a sandy ridge for most people’s second shot, but Harlech wins to get back to all square.
Hole Seventeen
Twenty years or so ago this would have been no contest. The old straight routing of the 17th at Harlech, with a famous set of cross-bunkers at exactly the right point 40 yards from the target, was much admired, and would have seen off Porthcawl’s uphill par five 17th, although the latter (as so often at RPGC) requires much more careful shot placement than might be immediately apparent. However, the need to extend the practice ground at Harlech for championship purposes, and subsequent re-routing of this fairway to the left, has changed the orientation of what is still a very demanding hole, and the cross bunkers have gone. Not everybody approves. Nonetheless this 17th still edges it for me and so, rather surprisingly, Harlech is now one up.
Hole Eighteen
But, to nobody’s great surprise, RPGC comes back very strongly at the last to halve the contest. The exhilarating Porthcawl eighteenth (‘one of the best sloping holes I know’– F Pennink) with a huge contoured green sloping down to the sea vanquishes Harlech’s flat 200-yard finisher: the latter is always a good match-play hole but arguably the weakest of Harlech’s set of shorties, and probably a better green site when (as in aerial photographs of the 1940s) almost completely surrounded by sand.

So an honourable half results. And not just because I have many very good friends at both institutions! As I say, I am conscious that such an outcome is not one that many will necessarily agree with, and it may be that were this (say) a Stableford contest Porthcawl’s greater consistency would win out. But I do think this a very defensible outcome and will, to quote the greatest fan of Merionethshire golf of all, ‘defend the same with my body’.

Come what may, both remain wonderful places for a game of golf.

David McIntosh

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2019, 07:27:38 PM »
Richard,

So the match ended up in a draw....what a fix!  ;)

Seriously though, it’s a very good write up on two courses that I have wanted to see for quite a while - hopefully Ben’s proposed Harlech/Aberdovey BUDA will come to fruition in the next few years and Porthcawl can be added before or after the event.

I don’t know either course at all but it appeared to be a close match up with never more than 2 holes in it at any point throughout. When I saw the title of the thread I was expecting to see RPGC emerge victorious by a few holes at least, purely down to it being widely acknowledged as the best course in Wales. However, as we saw in the Goswick vis Silloth match, being the ‘better’ course doesn’t guarantee success in these head to head matches.



Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2019, 12:22:15 AM »
Richard, thanks for your hard work on this match. I've played both courses but I would have Porthcawl ahead by a bunch. I find these hole by hole matches a poor way to compare courses. I'm not sure why it is so popular on this site.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Thomas Dai

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2019, 06:05:26 AM »
Thanks Richard. Takes quite a bit of time to put these kind of comparisons together so well done.
There seem to have been quite few alternations at RP over the last few years and now there is considerable work being undertaken in-house at RStD. How do you reckon the versions of the courses compare pre and post the alterations?


When the better courses in Wales are mentioned RP and RStD and Pennard are always mentioned but the course that doesn’t get enough praise imo is Southerndown. And to stir the pot a bit, the front-9, yes the front-9, at P&K is much better than its reputation!


Atb


Sean_A

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2019, 06:31:10 AM »
Richard, thanks for your hard work on this match. I've played both courses but I would have Porthcawl ahead by a bunch. I find these hole by hole matches a poor way to compare courses. I'm not sure why it is so popular on this site.

I agree with your match conclusion, RP up by a comfortable margin, but I disagree that the system of comparing courses in a matchplay system is poor.  I think with this system one is forced to look at what is in the ground.  The nebulous arguments about flow, playing to different parts of the compass etc get tossed out.  For me it is a great way to see if the 2nd/3rd tier courses have any real meat on their bones. 

Richard

Can you explain what the thinking was for 17th?  I am not convinced the new bunkering makes the hole any better.  In fact, I think the opposite.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Ian Andrew

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2019, 08:49:33 AM »
The journey matters.
Golf's more than individual pieces stuck together to for 18 holes.
A couple of quick examples about why design is more than just a collection of individual holes:

Highlands Links

- the walks between set up each change of setting

An example where it adds up to less than the sum of the parts

Baltusrol

- all the pieces are good, but the repetition (visually and strategically) leave you underwhelmed

or more than the individual pieces


Merion

- the psychology of the three act play

Riviera
- the balance of the design matters
- you must play equal draws and fades to be successful

and why not all lesser holes are weak holes ... when they have a purpose


Old Course
- the reprieve at 9 and 10 help set the stage for an exciting run of brilliant holes

Highlands Links
- the 11th was designed wide open to allow players to catch there breath before returning to the rolling land
- it made the wilder land feel even more undulating in comparison to the flat 11th fairway
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 09:01:44 AM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Sean_A

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2019, 12:44:23 PM »
The journey matters.
Golf's more than individual pieces stuck together to for 18 holes.
A couple of quick examples about why design is more than just a collection of individual holes:

Highlands Links

- the walks between set up each change of setting

An example where it adds up to less than the sum of the parts

Baltusrol

- all the pieces are good, but the repetition (visually and strategically) leave you underwhelmed

or more than the individual pieces


Merion

- the psychology of the three act play

Riviera
- the balance of the design matters
- you must play equal draws and fades to be successful

and why not all lesser holes are weak holes ... when they have a purpose


Old Course
- the reprieve at 9 and 10 help set the stage for an exciting run of brilliant holes

Highlands Links
- the 11th was designed wide open to allow players to catch there breath before returning to the rolling land
- it made the wilder land feel even more undulating in comparison to the flat 11th fairway

Ian

Sure, I get the journey is of value.  But when you mention TOC's 9th setting up the back nine...that is a step way too far. What would be wrong with a hole of the same length, but much better?  How would that detract from the back nine? 

I guess my point is a matchplay forces me (at least) to focus on the holes. That is important if one believes great courses must have great holes.  The journey supports and highlights great holes to a much greater degree than the great holes supporting the journey.  If the holes aren't the star attraction the journey is far less meaningful.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Thomas Dai

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2019, 01:13:01 PM »
I’m not convinced that comparing the same hole number on one course against the same hole number on another course produces a reasonable outcome ........ I wonder how the outcome of some of these challenges would be if one of the courses switched its 1st-nine and 2nd-nine around?
Pick the best 3’s, 4’s and 5’s from each course as a composite and see which course ends up with more holes in the composite would seem a better way, although I do appreciate Ian’s ‘golfs more than individual pieces stuck together’ thought.
Atb


« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 01:16:45 PM by Thomas Dai »

James Brown

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2019, 09:33:20 PM »
Love this comparison.  Playing 36 at Porthcawl and 36 at Pennard in July and really looking foreward to the experience. 

Sean_A

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2019, 05:56:38 AM »
I’m not convinced that comparing the same hole number on one course against the same hole number on another course produces a reasonable outcome ........ I wonder how the outcome of some of these challenges would be if one of the courses switched its 1st-nine and 2nd-nine around?
Pick the best 3’s, 4’s and 5’s from each course as a composite and see which course ends up with more holes in the composite would seem a better way, although I do appreciate Ian’s ‘golfs more than individual pieces stuck together’ thought.
Atb

ATB

Its not the outcome which matters, thats just a bit of fun. Its the process of really looking at holes separated from all the other issues which counts, for me anyway.

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 06:23:43 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Richard Fisher

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2019, 10:56:11 AM »
Thanks to all - and I knew that Sean (and many others) wouldn't agree with my outcome, which is fine! In my defence I also cite John Pinner's Golfers Guide to Wales (2001), a substantial (288pp) work not very well known outside Wales, but which also comes to the same overall conclusion.

The RPGC changes to e.g. the 5th and 9th greens were part of a Mackenzie/Ebert masterplan (and, disclaimer, Martin E is a friend), and in part a reflection that the slopes of both were simply too extreme for modern championship green speeds and pin positions. As many GCA readers will know, there was quite a lot of speculation a decade or so ago about Porthcawl as a possible Open venue, discussion which has now ceased (certainly without further significant land purchases beyond the 5th fairway).

The changes to the 17th at Harlech were prompted by the need for a decent-length practice ground, especially for championships, and the new fairway orientation was perceived (rightly or wrongly) to work less well with the existing cross bunkers. The new fairway is much more undulant than its predecessor, and the drive is quite a bit tighter at its far end, but the slightly artificial Hoylake 'cop' that now borders the hole on the right is not to everyone's taste. Maybe this new 17th hole is half a shot tougher than the old 17th, but not quite as ultimately  distinctive, or as satisfying? Still a very good par duneland four, in anyone's money.

As for the exercise as a whole, I did it partly to try and rationalise my own assessment of both, and to remove as much as possible the obvious sentimental biases to which I confess. It's also very true - as Tom Doak and others have commented on GCA before - that the experience of repeated member play can give a rather different perspective to individual holes than that of somebody seeing a course perhaps two or three times in their life.

As for Thomas's other important point, about the merits of Southerndown and P&K (including its first nine), obviously I agree. Interestingly Conwy seems to have emerged in recent decades as the other major championship venue in Wales, hosting the Curtis Cup in 2020 - and apart from the excellence of the golf Conwy is of course very well connected via the A55 to the major population centres of the north-west, and to the considerable hotel accommodation of Llandudno more locally. Unlike (very sadly) Harlech.

Conwy will then become the third Welsh course to have hosted the Curtis Cup, and in a pub quiz the identity of the other one that isn't Porthcawl (1964) would, I suspect, take a very long time to emerge: the choice of St Pierre in (1980) remains one of the more remarkable in the long history of transatlantic matches, amateur or professional, although at the time it was a regular European Tour stop (and, very importantly, extremely convenient for the motorway), but St Pierre (parkland, near Chepstow) seems nowadays rather to have disappeared from view, certainly in the tournament context and is almost never mentioned on this site at all.

Sean_A

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl New
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2019, 05:16:18 AM »
Richard

I think my preference is for more wild and wooly golf compared to you....hence my favourite two courses in Wales are Pennard and Welshpool  8)

I am one that thinks Porthcawl's "journey" increases the quality of the course quite a bit.  That said, Harlech's is interesting as well, even if less provacative (there is very little elevation change) than Porthcawl's.   

Thanks for the rundown on Harlech's 17th.  I remember when the hole was shifted some years ago and being impressed with the new hole to the point where I thought it was in the conversation for best hole on the course.  I find the new bunker scheme less compelling and up near the green on the right a bit weird to be honest.  I guess trench style bunkers are out of favour...what a shame....we have WHO and Muirfield to carry the banner!

A side note...Harlech is getting seriously punchy...£95 a game...gulp!

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 05:08:56 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Ben Stephens

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2019, 04:36:00 AM »
Having played Harlech. I thought 17 and 18 was a poor finish and having the 17 hole run by the driving range 'cheapened' the experience of being in the wild dunes.


My solution would be make 17 into a par three in a NW direction and 18 into a par 4/5 in a NNE direction with the fairway further away from the range and bring back the trench bunker as it was a great feature.   

Ben Stephens

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2019, 04:36:36 AM »
Richard,


Was there a hole south of the current 15th in the past?


Cheers
Ben

Richard Fisher

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2019, 04:56:05 AM »
Thanks so much to Ben and to Sean.

Ben, yes, there was indeed some golf in the huge dunes at Harlech beyond the 15th green, but only for a very brief period in the 1920s: as you play down the 16th, you will see a lovely curving natural valley which is really all that remains of an attempt to utilise this amazing ground. The club and its limited green staff could not control the blown sand, and neither the two or three fairways or the greens ever 'took'. Very sadly, the whole project had to be given up within a couple of years and no photos seem to survive. If you ever read the RStD club history ( a seminal work by RK Fisher, as it happens) there is quite a bit about this, as there is about the fascinating (unimplemented) Hawtree proposals of the 1960s for a wholesale redo of the closing five holes, with the eighteenth indeed played as a par five, albeit doglegging from the current 17th tee. And I do agree with both of you about the qualities of the previous trench bunker, sadly missed in the latest design of the 17th.

Sean, yes, Harlech pricing has certainly gone up a notch in recent years (although still 50% lower for a round than RPGC). And I too love wild and wooly, although not perhaps quite as much as you! To my shame I have never played at Welshpool, although I have driven past the access road literally hundreds of times, but the mid-Wales hilltop course I always recommend warmly is Llandindrod Wells, which is a gorgeous place in which to hit golf shots with some distinctly proper golf holes, and which was for many years the venue of the Welsh Boys' Championship, by simple virtue of being pretty much in the middle of the country. At one time, there were 45 holes in the vicinity of Llandindrod Wells, during its Edwardian spa heyday, and the town is still served by train (as of course on a different single line are Harlech and Aberdovey), which is not the least remarkable survival from that grander past.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Harlech v Porthcawl
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2019, 06:05:12 AM »
Welshpool is recommended. Pretty unique in a James Braid like way. Well worth playing.
As to Llandrindod Wells, worth a visit. Wonderful views looking down on the town with a not easily forgettable 18th hole, known as ‘Death or Glory’ I believe, played over the road. There are trees around the course now though, which didn’t use to be the case.
Machynlleth is worth a visit as well, particularly if you are a fan of rural and rustic 9-hole courses with sheep-fence greens and pavilion style Clubhouses. I posted some photos of Mach’ herein a while back.
Atb

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