I wish more 6,300 yard courses were as dynamic as Pinehurst No. 2

[Carl Nichols]

Ran:
What do the high/low scores look like for the par 4's? 

[Jay Mickle]

The Mid Pines mafia is strong here but Mid Pines is also over-seeded this time of year  and Pinehurst No. 2 is dormant and firm, so even the Mayor of Mid Pines would acknowledge that one course shines now - and the other doesn't.

Point made dormant Bermuda on well drained land is surely the preferable surface at this time of year here in the Sandhills and is why I never turn down invitations to #2 or Dormie in the winter.

[Joe Leenheer]

Ran,


I played Pinehurst No. 2 last year for the 1st time since Coore and Crenshaw made the modifications.  I thought the course was improved and great, but our mutual friend Jay Mickle has corrupted me and I still think Mid Pines is the better course for a lot of the same reasons you mentioned for Pinehurst No. 2. 


Therefore, I started wondering why so many people love Pinehurst No. 2, but hardly talk about Mid Pines. 


Is Pinehurst No. 2 a course the more you play the better it gets?  The same happen to me at Seminole, 1st time I played it I thought it was over rated, but the 2nd time, I fell in love.  3rd time I wanted to marry.


I am looking forward to playing No. 2 again this year.

I played No. 2 pre-renovation and it was very underwhelming....although I did play it in the winter on a soggy day.  I had no desire to revisit. 


Fast forward a couple years (2014 to be exact), I headed back for a pro-am.  I walked off the No. 2 course and right into the golf shop to get on the books for another time the very next day.  It's high up on my personal list and offers great play-ability for many skill levels, true walk-ability, and plenty of charm and old-world ooze. 


I've proposed several times since then!

[Joe Zucker]

Andy Johnson at the Fried Egg released some podcasts with Geoff Ogilvy last week and the topic of Pinehurst came up.  Geoff tells a story about how during the 2014 US Open he was chatting with a middle aged couple at the bar who come to Pinehurst every year.  They talked about their favorite courses at the resort and he said something to the effect of "#2 must be your least favorite because it is so hard".  The couple strongly disagreed as said it was the easiest for them because they never lose a ball and can always putt the ball up on to the greens.  In their eyes, the other courses were much tougher.


He goes on to talk about how #2 is one of the hardest courses in the world for pros, but is relatively manageable for people just trying to make a bogey.  The course is dynamic because if you are conservative and accept bogey, it's pretty easy.  All the trouble begins when you try to make a birdie.  This same idea is why #13 and #15 at Augusta are great.  If you tried to make a par on either of those holes, you could all day.  It's when you try to make 3 or 4 that 7 and 8 come into the picture.  The temptation around what looks like an easy shot is what makes #2 a course with high variance scoring.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I would nominate the Cashen course at Ballybunion. I played it at 5900 yards and had my hands full, but you can also go back to 6300, if you fancy your luck.

Miss Cashen has five par 3s and five par 5s (not all can be had, but some of the par 4s fill in for that).

The other course at Ballybunion is no slouch either, but I felt that a mindful player can get around much easier. 7 shots in my case.

Ulrich

[Jerry Kluger]

Your description sounds so much like many of the UK/Ireland courses but especially The Old Course and Royal Dornoch.  Shall we say that the obvious connection between Ross and those courses is the reason that #2 plays as it does?  My nominee in the US is Ballyneal which has much in common with #2 including being wide and firm and fast without even tee markers.

[Thomas Dai]

I would nominate the Cashen course at Ballybunion. I played it at 5900 yards and had my hands full, but you can also go back to 6300, if you fancy your luck.
Miss Cashen has five par 3s and five par 5s (not all can be had, but some of the par 4s fill in for that).
The other course at Ballybunion is no slouch either, but I felt that a mindful player can get around much easier. 7 shots in my case.
Ulrich

The Cashen course imo doesn’t get enough credit. Okay it’s a tough walk but there’s some distinctly challenging golf out there within a relatively short yardage, which to me is a good thing.
Another course that is a hoot load of fun within a short yardage yet is much better than it may on the surface appear is the Annesley at Royal County Down.
In fact there are a bunch of fine ‘second’ courses at celebrated championship venues which are fun yet challenging with a shorter yardage than the immediately adjacent big brother.....Formby Ladies, St Olaf at Cruden Bay, Carnoustie Burnside.
Short can be fun and challenging.
Atb

[Buck Wolter]

Kingsley is almost exactly 6300 yards from the blue tees where I play 90% of my rounds, it gets there much differently than #2 but dynamic is as good a description as I can think of.

[Joe Sponcia]

Ran,


I'm glad you took the time to explain this nuance that many overlook...and why it's so hard to play a course only a few times and 'get' it.  Also hard when visiting a new area with many courses on the agenda to breathe in the experience before jumping in the car to play a second 18.  As I've aged, I've certainly appreciated 27-36 on the same course over a rabid weekend of belt-notching. 


Birdie holes at #2?  I hover between a 1-4 at any given time and have never been more terrified to draw the putter back or hit an 8 iron to what felt like a car hood area.  That is what I personally loved the most and can't wait to experience again. 


The green slopes and subtleties are a 10, and the maximum I believe could be enjoyable.  They certainly aren't like the old pictures of Morfontaine, which I believe would be excessive today.


Take every round in, enjoy each step.  Thanks again for taking the time to write this.

[ward peyronnin]

Lawsonia at a shade above 6400 yds comes to mind with it's unforgettable distribution of 6 alternating 3s and 5s.

Now not all the par 3s are ball busters but certainly some contain dark recesses lurking to produce the described effect. Regardless I can rarely recall as fetching a stretch of golf that is certainly give and take.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Thomas,

We need to get you here - and you know what? As soon as I saw your name, I knew I had screwed up. Our beloved Old Minchinhampton qualifies based on its awesome one shotters and some par 5s (and a few 4s) that can be had. Lots of 'to and fro' at Old Minch.

Steve,

Yes it does - great greens provide enormous flexibility and reduce the requirement of length.

Tim G,

Very good call and I am particularly happy to see your reference of wide fairways at CB. A few years ago, I received emails with photos that backed up the contention that the fairways were cruelly narrow, lined with thick rough left and right. Hopefully, that was a weather related blip vs. the club making a conscious decision to be a 'world top 100 course.'   

Tim M.,



I played with members, so it is $100, carrying your own bag, for a period of time in January and February. Add in Dormie and its dormant fairways and THIS IS THE BEST TIME TO COME TO MOORE COUNTY. I have been invited to X,Y and Z this January and February and I tell everyone, No chance - I can play No. 2 and there is no place in the world I would rather be this time of year.

Mark,

What I should have written is, 'Given that - literally - every modern architect I know has been to No. 2, why are their efforts sterile in comparison?' Would that have made you happy?  If you see something, learn from it and the course set-up of Pinehurst No. 2 has been on display for decades; don't know why the pick-up elsewhere is so slow.

James,

I agree and it's why the Ryder Cup should go back there as all kinds of things can occur.


Tom,

Rye has one 'give' hole - the 1st - and then it is a beating thereafter given its very 'tight' and unmerciful par of 68 so ….. I think your courses are a better example of wild swings of fortune. I would have more birdies on No. 2 in one week than I would at Rye in a year. 


Peter,

Totally get your point and I would add that Pinehurst No. 2 didn't take its final form until the mid-1930s, and by then steel reigned. I have a beautiful hickory set from Ralph Livingston but the thought of using it at No. 2 is a 'no-go' as the architect built No. 2 with other implements in mind. Congrats to Pinehurst for not moving the tee up on 8, for instance, and calling it/making it a par 4 for the retail player.


Paul,

Given that No. 2 has relatively mundane topography, it is unlikely to WOW the first time player that perhaps in this day and age has played some great golf along big bodies of water. At some point though in the golfer's maturation process, he may come to appreciate that a three foot rise and tight short grass is both more debilitating AND more meaningful from a golf perspective than a dramatic dune 20 times bigger. The Mid Pines mafia is strong here but Mid Pines is also over-seeded this time of year  and Pinehurst No. 2 is dormant and firm, so even the Mayor of Mid Pines would acknowledge that one course shines now - and the other doesn't.

Ran convinced me to try a trip to the area in February. I have time for 2 rounds, and I've narrowed it to Mid Pines, Tobacco Road, Dormie and #4. Southern Pines is a contender too.

Opinions on which two to prioritize? I haven't played any of them. Thanks for the input.

[Jay Mickle]

Ryan,
You have chosen well. I recommend your 1st three courses to visitors looking to experience the best of the area if not playing #2.
Mid Pines on the basis its Ross lineage, topography, routing and design. Hard not to walk back to the first hole for another go.
Tobacco Road because it is in a league of its own. Best played with someone familiar with the course for full appreciation.
Dormie is a great course but you have likely played similar C&C courses. Perhaps the best variety of greens in the Sandhills.
#4 needs time to mature.
Southern Pines a fine routing but n to up to the level of your other choices

[Steve Kline]

I would go with Mid Pines for sure. Fun, old school Ross layout with some really interesting greens. Easily walkable. Great renovation work.


I loved Dormie when I played it, but that was almost 5 years ago.


Tobacco Road is unique. It's worth a play. But, having played it several times, I'm not all that excited about playing it again. Especially, as I'm not as good as I was right now and I could see myself losing a ton of balls.


So, I would go with #4 as my second choice. I've played "#4" since the late '80s. I'd be really interested to see Hanse's version and what's different about it. I would want to see if they have something that can provide an alternative to #2, because they never really have. And, that for me is why Pinehurst the resort lags behind Bandon, Sand Valley and Streamsong, which all have multiple courses you want to play.


However, my second choice is very personal. If you've never played a Strantz course, then I would probably say play Tobacco Road.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Thanks guys, I think it'll be Tobacco Road and Mid Pines with a stay at Pine Crest Inn. I did the Pinehurst resort experience before and did 2 (post reno) , 4 & 8, but was new in my architecture journey and realized I missed a lot.

[Jerry Kluger]

Steve: Good luck with Tobacco Road - should do Pine Needles instead.  If you do play TR you must play with someone who has played it before or somehow get hold of a yardage book.  And yes, if you tend to spray it bring lots of balls.