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Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2019, 04:59:40 PM »
Goswick better come back or I’m canceling Buda.
Fortunate, then, that Goswick's 14th is a stunner.  An up hill left to right dog leg there is rough and a cluster of bunkers on the inside of the fairway and a couple of brilliantly placed bunkers on the outside of the corner.  It's the approach and green that make the hole, though.  The green is hidden in a large bowl.  It's a larger, softer, better version of the bath tub green on the 14th at Cruden Bay.  At Goswick, however, the left bank is covered in gorse.  The right bank, however, allows the ball to be fed in from that side.  The green itself banks sharply right to left and away.


At Silloth, we turn back on ourselves and play another par 5.  This isn't a bad one but against the 13th it can feel a bit of a let down.  With the dune on which 13 sits running along the right side, we drive to a fairway without sight of the green.  The second is blind, as the fairway falls down a ridge perhaps 150 yards short of the green.  The green sits in a large flat area.  A decent hole but too close to its brilliant predecessor.


This is a straightforward decision.  Goswick wins and closes to one down with 4 to play.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Gallant

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2019, 05:01:02 PM »
Waiting on pins and needles. Agree almost completely with your assessments so far. If our thinking holds the same, I think it will go down to 17 or 18!

Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick - 15th
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2019, 05:08:05 PM »
I hope it was pretty clear when discussing the 9th at Silloth that I think it's a great short par 3.  At 15, Goswick gives it a run for its money.  Indeed, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if it doesn't match it.


Goswick's 15th plays from the top of the dune down to a semi blind green.  The green itself is cut into the dune, so is surrounded front, left and for some of the back by steep banking.  There are deep pots in the front bank and the green is wide but shallow.  A miss long or right risks finding the narrow burn or being lost.  Short of the bunkering is dead.  Carry the bunkers but land on the downslope of the bank and you're through and in trouble.  I have had success running a ball down the slope on the left but this is a very different, very, very good short par 3.


Silloth gives us a good par 4 with a slight left to right turn, a single, evil pot on the right of the fairway and a solid green complex.  But that isn't going to match Goswick's brilliance here.


All square and 3 to play.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2019, 05:10:13 PM »
Waiting on pins and needles. Agree almost completely with your assessments so far. If our thinking holds the same, I think it will go down to 17 or 18!
It's very tight.  I'm going to sleep on how I think the next three play out, because on each of them I can see arguments either way.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Gallant

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2019, 05:21:09 PM »
Waiting on pins and needles. Agree almost completely with your assessments so far. If our thinking holds the same, I think it will go down to 17 or 18!
It's very tight.  I'm going to sleep on how I think the next three play out, because on each of them I can see arguments either way.


Agreed. Admittedly, I don't think either course saves the strongest for last. I have in my head how it would likely play out, but I'll leave it to you first  ;D

Sean_A

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2019, 05:34:45 PM »
Sean,

Agree Number 4 is close...very close. But for me, the green sites are a push (or maybe just a slight advantage to Goswick). But in my mind, there isn't anything incredibly special about tee shot or fairway undulations, whereas at Silloth, I think that is one of the best tee shots on the course and I love the micro undulations in the fairway, along with the dunes that you play through for the approach.

I may not have said it previously, but if holes are close and good, I will almost always side with a par 5 because goodun's are much more rare than 3s & 4s.  The hole is just in that length which makes it possible to have a go in two, but its a very dangerous shot.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Sean_A

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2019, 06:04:15 PM »
Mark

Not surprisingly I have the match far closer thus far. 

1. I think you are underselling the awkwardness of G's opener. I am not pressed to name a winner for each hole and would consider the opener a wash.

2. For sure, Silloth 1up.

3. Yes, but a close call. Silloth 2up.

4. Both have great greensites.  But, as is usually the case I will take the par 5 over 3s and 4s.  Its a very close call.  Silloth 1up.

5. Too close to call for me, though I haven't seen the new green at Silloth.  Both holes have features I really like...Silloth's go find the fairway drive and the ramp effect up to the green at Goswick.  Silloth 1up

6. Both are good holes, but I will plop for a good 5 over a 3.  All square.

7. Both are very good holes, but I really like Silloth's greensite.  Silloth 1up.

8. I didn't get a sense of the full picture of Goswick because the winter tee is radically different from the summer tee.  I do, however, like the green and how it is protected.  Silloth's medium par 4 is not one I am a fan of, but I can't choose a clear winner here.  Silloth 1up

Ciao

9. No debate...Silloth 2up.

10. I am quite a fan of Sillloth's 10-13 as it is a better mix of holes than any combo on the front nine.  Goswick's run too is very good. An awkward hole, Silloth's 10th turns heard left and at an odd distance.  Going for the green on this short 4 is possible, but potentially a kiss on the card.  Goswick's 10th is pretty straight forward, but tough.  I think for me, awkward golf is necessary so Silloth is 3up.

11. The caravan park doesn't bother me in the least on Silloth's 11th.  A very strong drive is required to make the corner of the hard dogleg.  The green too is interestingly cocooned in a ring of dunes visually spoiled by vegetation.  G's 11th is straight ahead over a very cool fairway, the centre of which looks to be scooped out.  The bunkers are well placed as well.  This is a tough call, but I will go with the cool shaping.  Silloth 2up.

12. This is a no brainer...G's great hole plays up and blindly over a large chasm.  Silloth 1up

13.  G's longish par 3 is played from high ground near the raised the chasm on #11.  Silloth's par 5 plays uphill then over a break in the fairway to a cool green which wouldn't be out of place at Pinehurst.  Enough talk.  Silloth 2up

14. Silloth's par five plays over a smallish hill is okay...I don't like it nearly as well as many do.  I think it matters not for Goswick's par 4 is a cracker.  The approach to a slightly sunken green is especially attractive and it is difficult to get close to a forward hole location.  Silloth 1up

15. G's short par 3 is excellent.  It plays downhill to horseshoe shaped green flanked by front bunkers.  However, Silloth's par 4 too is very good in a utilitarian sort of way. I think I will have to go for the sheer beauty of Goswick in this instance.  All square.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Niall C

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2019, 07:26:24 AM »
Mark/Sean

I'll wait to you have both finished bumping your gums before I skewer the two of you !

Niall

Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2019, 08:47:00 AM »
Mark/Sean

I'll wait to you have both finished bumping your gums before I skewer the two of you !

Niall
I note that for all our "bumping gums" both Sean and I have the match all square!
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick - 16th
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2019, 08:56:04 AM »
Silloth's last par 3 is  very similar hole to the 12th.  There's some additional bunkering on the left of the green, the bank before the green on the left isn't as in play and it's perhaps a club longer.  The false front/bank fronting the green is maybe a bit higher and it's certainly steeper, so a ball landing on, rather than short of the bank is less likely to run up.  As with 6 and 12, a very serviceable par 3.


Goswick's 16th is a longish par 4, with a well protected green.  It's not much of a dogleg but the green is undoubtedly better approached from the left side of the fairway.  Off the tee there's loads of room, or so it feels, with only light rough on the right.  That isn't where to come in from, though.  The green falls off on both sides and the rear, there's a nasty bunker 25 yards short of the green on the left and a greenside bunker short right, to emphasise the desirability of a well placed tee shot.


I'm torn here.  My initial thought was that this was a half but the more I think about it, the more I think there's just a bit more to Goswick's 16th.  It requires a bit more thought and two good shots, not one.  Is that enough to win, at this late stage?  No.  Hole is halved and we go to 17 all square.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2019, 03:32:41 PM »
Both courses have a par 5 17th.


Silloth's has a wide fairway but there's a clear advantage in being on the right side, where there's a bit of a speed slot.  A flat area of fairway on the left used to be a green, I'm reliably informed.  In the right conditions even relatively short hitters can think of going for the green in two, as the hole plays downhill.  The fairway dips down to a large green and a ball landing on that downslope will inevitably go through the back.  Not too far off the back of this flat green is a hedge and OOB but it will take a serious misjudgment or a knifed wedge to find that hazard.


Goswick's par 5 plays from an elevated tee but from there is on flattish land adjacent to the 10th.  It is made, however, by the bunkering.  On the tee, the eye is caught by a line of three deep pots across the fairway.  These aren't in driving range for anyone but a flat belly, however and in an adverse wind may be more of an issue for a second shot.  A large bunker left off the tee and a smaller one on the right, a bit further on, however, are very much in play.  The green is more interesting than Silloth's, though it isn't one of Goswick's most demanding.  It's surrounds are notable, however.  Bunkering on either side is solid if unremarkable.  Immediately in front of the green, however, is a tarmacadam road.  Any ball landing just short is going to take a serious bounce.  In many ways, this shouldn't work.  In practice, however, whilst not Goswick's best par 5 (to be fair, the three previous ones are all excellent) it's a very good hole.


This is tight, too.  I like Silloth's 17th more than I used to but at this stage, having erred on the side of caution at 16, I can't have two consecutive halves where my instinct is that Goswick is the better hole.  I'm giving this to Goswick.


Having been 4 down after 4, Goswick has not just clawed back the deficit but now leads, one up with only 18 to go.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ian Galbraith

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2019, 03:39:51 PM »
Drum roll......we’re about to find out if Mark likes Marmite ;)

Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2019, 04:38:52 PM »
Drum roll......we’re about to find out if Mark likes Marmite ;)
Possibly the perfect accompaniment for toast. 








The 18th at Goswick, though, now that's another thing altogether.....
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2019, 05:24:37 PM »
Damn.  I just wrote a long essay on the last and then my hotel internet went down as I posted and I lost it.  You'll have to wait for the decision.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 05:36:21 PM by Mark Pearce »
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2019, 03:39:21 AM »

Mark,


I have never played Silloth but would be surprised if it's last hole did not beat Goswick's. The last at Goswick is not a bad short par four but feels very much a mid course hole rather than a finishing hole. On the other hand it is an excellent proposition for matchplay. I really liked Goswick on the couple of times I played it but cannot feel a little let down by how claustrophobic the layout is around the clubhouse. This is all the more baffling considering there is plenty of unused space. With 1,9.17 & 18 all to some degree compromised I find it odd that this has never been addressed.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 07:57:41 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Tim Gallant

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2019, 06:55:08 AM »
Jon,


Echoing your sentiment, I think it will come down to weather Mark favours match-play or stroke play. If I had a card in hand, I don't think I would appreciate the 18th all that much, but as a match-play hole, it is certainly exciting!!

Niall C

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2019, 08:18:27 AM »
Damn.  I just wrote a long essay on the last and then my hotel internet went down as I posted and I lost it.  You'll have to wait for the decision.

Looks like someone's auditioning to host "Who Wants to be a Millionaire ?"

Niall

James Boon

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2019, 12:10:36 PM »
Having spent 3 wonderful days at Buda several years ago I really enjoyed Silloth. Reading this thread only whets my appetite more for this years Buda! Thanks Mark!


Referencing the 3rd at Silloth being driveable, Ben's tee shot that gave you all a scare appeared a huge hook into the trouble to those of us back on the tee playing the hole for the first time or so. Even with that wind behind it never occured to us that it would be anywhere near. It was therefore quite a surprise to find his ball as close to the green as it was, and if he had been going for it I certainly wouldnt have let him try without one of us going ahead to check it was clear!  :o


I think we were lucky that Buda in that over 3 days we got to play in two opposite wind directions. I recall playing the wonderful little 9th as a flick with a gap wedge on one day, but then a hybrid the next!


Cheers,


James

« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 12:15:20 PM by James Boon »
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins, Alwoodley

Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick - 18th
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2019, 02:38:53 PM »
Rather conventionally both courses end with a par 4.


Silloth's  is, staying with convention, a 439 yard one.  Fortunately the same prevailing wind that makes the 1st frequently so daunting will just as often be behind here.  Whether that's a help depends on conditions.  The drive is from the dune, offset to the left, so a draw "fits" the hole well and may best avoid the two fairway bunkers guarding the right.  A straight shot heading that way, however, may well be glad to catch one of those bunkers as it's quite possible downwind to drive into the gorse beyond them.  From the fairway, the shot can, in soft still conditions, be a long iron or more.  If the course is fast and firm, however, and the wind blowing, even a wedge may run through.  The green is protected left and right by bunkering and is reasonably long.  It's a classic tough links finisher.


Goswick takes convention and rips it up.  The hole is 170 yards or more shorter than Silloth's.  At under 270 yards from the tips and playing from an elevated tee in the dunes to the flatter land around the clubhouse, it really should be driveable.  I can't recall ever playing it with someone who hasn't hit driver but I can't recall ever seeing it hit.  The green isn't big but nor is it notably small.  It is, however, well protected by several bunkers and the front portion, where the hole is often cut, is narrow.  The green slopes to the front, so a putt from the back to the front is a challenge.  The green is so well protected that even from a good lie a second shot with a wedge (or just a flick with one) is difficult to get close.  It is, as Tim suggested, a fantastic way to decide a close match. 


There's no doubt that, whilst a hole like Goswick's 18th might be raved about if it came a few holes earlier in the round, it feels odd to find a short par 4 as a closer.  That said, it's a memorable hole.  And a hole which always seems to produce some drama.  I must admit that it's also a hole I start thinking about well before the 17th tee.  And I love standing on that thinking about laying up, before taking out my driver.


Against that, I like Silloth's closer more each time I play it.  It's reassuringly conventional but in a very good way.


Whilst I like both holes a lot, it would seem wrong for a hole as Marmite as Goswick's to feature in a half, so I have to decide one way or the other.  With absolute certainty that 50% of people who know both courses well will disagree with me and the other 50% will approve wholeheartedly, I'm going to give this to.....










Goswick.


So Goswick takes the match 2 up.


I have re-run the match a few times, altering a few of the results in my mind but, each time, I have Goswick come out narrowly ahead.  I have to admit that feels odd.  Asked to assess the two courses as a whole I would say that, whilst both are very good indeed, and I have no doubt that if Goswick was just a few miles further North, and thus in Scotland, it would be a bucket list course with a reputation for travelling American golfers (it would be the third best easily accessible course in East Lothian), I think that Silloth is discernibly better.  I don't think there's much in it but that's because both are very good links indeed.


I look forward to any further discussion and to the views of BUDAites who see Goswick later this year, having seen Silloth only a few years ago.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Niall C

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2019, 02:42:54 PM »
Hmmm, seems to me this thread was just an exercise to wind me up. But I won't fall for it. Silloth is clearly a much better course. What was it Darwin said......I never more fell instantly in love with a golf course.....or something like that. And while Goswick has merit, how can it compete with a course that has one of the best starts of any links course followed by common consent one of the best par 5's in the country in the 13th. And if Silloth didn't have that hole you would probably be raving about the landforms on the 14th...or the fantastic rumple to the fairway to the 15th.

Maybe that's the thing, the high points are so good that in comparison the other holes tend to suffer in comparison whereas at Goswick they don't because you don't get those highs. Where at Goswick is there a hole as good or as interesting as the 3rd, 4th, 7th or 13th at Silloth ? All natural holes with wonderful contours and all of one bunker between them.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I ask you, is Mr Pearce guilty or not guilty of slandering the good name of Silloth ?

Niall

Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2019, 02:46:33 PM »
Hmmm, seems to me this thread was just an exercise to wind me up. But I won't fall for it. Silloth is clearly a much better course. What was it Darwin said......I never more fell instantly in love with a golf course.....or something like that. And while Goswick has merit, how can it compete with a course that has one of the best starts of any links course followed by common consent one of the best par 5's in the country in the 13th. And if Silloth didn't have that hole you would probably be raving about the landforms on the 14th...or the fantastic rumple to the fairway to the 15th.

Maybe that's the thing, the high points are so good that in comparison the other holes tend to suffer in comparison whereas at Goswick they don't because you don't get those highs. Where at Goswick is there a hole as good or as interesting as the 3rd, 4th, 7th or 13th at Silloth ? All natural holes with wonderful contours and all of one bunker between them.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I ask you, is Mr Pearce guilty or not guilty of slandering the good name of Silloth ?

Niall
Can you read, Mr Carlton?  Did you not see my conclusion?


To answer your questions, I agree those holes at Silloth are highlights but, 13 aside, 4, 6, 12, 14 and 15 at Goswick are in the same company.  And whilst 13 at Silloth is the best par 5 on either course the next 4 in that ranking are at Goswick!
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Niall C

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2019, 02:57:06 PM »
The conclusion I read was Goswick winning 2 up. Clearly I must have missed something last time round but look forward to being made aware of the full worth of Goswick this September.

Niall

ps. the point of this thread is just to advertise the Goswick BUDA, admit it ?

Scott Warren

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2019, 04:16:36 PM »
Mark did mention early in the thread the flaws with this method of comparison.


Seems to me from the thread (great work, Mark, BTW), being that I know Silloth but not Goswick, that it’s a case of Silloth having 42pts and Goswick having 37, but Goswick stealing the Matchplay win.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2019, 04:18:22 PM »
Mark did mention early in the thread the flaws with this method of comparison.


Seems to me from the thread (great work, Mark, BTW), being that I know Silloth but not Goswick, that it’s a case of Silloth having 42pts and Goswick having 37, but Goswick stealing the Matchplay win.
Now that's an interesting way of looking at it.  Just don't expect me to start that now......
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Gallant

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Matchplay - Silloth vs Goswick
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2019, 03:31:49 AM »
Well done Mark! A wonderful match the follow and agree wholeheartedly with the outcome and your wrap-up. In this type of side-by-side comparison, Goswick has enough quality to stick around most holes, but as you and Niall say, I suspect Silloth still has an awful lot of strength that puts it as one of my favourites in the UK&I.


If I were to do a 10 round split between the two on golf courses alone, it would be close, but I'd probably go 6-4 Silloth.