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Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tee Box Sizes
« on: January 10, 2019, 08:27:56 AM »
It always amaze me how designers come to a conclusion on how big or small they are.  In the last 5 courses I have worked at in the maintenance field you really notice this when it comes to trying to maintain divots on the par 3 tee boxes.  I have started a new job as the Head Superintendent at Verrado/Victory here in Phoenix, and on the Verrado course literally the smallest tee boxes on the course are the white tees on the mid length par 3s.  This isn't the only course I have seen this at too.   It makes our jobs real hard on trying to have grass on those tees if 100+ people a day are taking divots on a 1,200 sq ft tee box.  The real brain teaser though is that the par 5 tee boxes are HUGE and take forever to mow when everyone is hitting a driver.  I feel like this is a very easy fix that still is happening with a lot of new courses.  Make the par 3 tee boxes the biggest on property with TONS of room to move around the markers and have the long par 4s and par 5 tee boxes be very small in nature.  There is no need to have a huge tee box or even a normal size tee box for a par 5.  I know the trend for a lot of designers is to have the same look throughout the course with a 30x30 or 40x40 tee box, but that just doesn't work IMO. 

Which courses are the worst at this, and which ones succeed at providing ample room on the tees that have divots and small tee boxes on the long holes?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2019, 08:59:21 AM »
Peter

That's an interesting comment. It appears to me that the architect in the instance you quote is more concerned in building a bigger tee for the longer holes so the length of the hole can be varied more, rather than focusing on the maintenance issues for the tees.

Niall

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2019, 09:29:55 AM »
Well, how about trimming the par 5 tee boxes and taking the grass to expand the par 3 white tees?


Sounds like a great project for you, Peter...;-)


Dont think you need an architect to help you there.
Call a meeting of the board/greens committee. If you do need help, it can be done in May/June after prime AZ season dies down and any number of local construction companies would be happy to do it if your internal staff cannot.


Send Tom Lehman an email and ask him....


We had par 4 and par 5 tee boxes at our club that Jim Urbina called "aircraft carriers". Simple solution was to bifurcate them to save on maintenance and, to some, deliver a better visual product (subjectively). The grass from the tee boxes was then used to expand others.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 09:42:22 AM by Ian Mackenzie »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2019, 09:35:08 AM »
Peter:


It's not smart, but it happens.


It happens more when you are building a bunch of downhill par-3 holes, and trying to build tees close together, into a steep slope.  It's hard to make them big enough in that circumstance without tearing up the whole world.

Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2019, 09:46:16 AM »
Well, how about trimming the par 5 tee boxes and taking the grass to expand the par 3 white tees?


Sounds like a great project for you, Peter...;-)


Dont think you need an architect to help you there.
Call a meeting of the board/greens committee. If you do need help, it can be done in May/June after prime AZ season dies down and any number of local construction companies would be happy to do it if your internal staff cannot.


Send Tom Lehman an email and ask him....

Yeah that is the plan this summer, take some meat off of the big par 5 tee boxes and add to 3 of the smallest ones on the par 3s.  I have my hands full this summer on cultural practices that have been neglected for a while, but understand that most retail golfers notice divots on small tee boxes and that is high on the priority list. 

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2019, 10:11:03 AM »
So many tees are long and thin. Tees with width are nice as they give variable tee-shot angles.
Atb

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2019, 11:59:07 AM »





Probably ridiculous Peter  two personal  observations.


Even though long  tee boxes on par 4,5  increase variability (good), it is my belief that they  rarely used especially with the more new designs that may have multiple sets of tees on one box.  If a hole is 400 yards with hazards off the tee and a 30 yards runway tee the hole should play different every day regardless of weather, wind, or anything else.  It rarely does. 


Also, though I would prefer smaller tee boxes everywhere,  doesn't an "oversize" tee box tend to look out of scale on a very short hole?


Variability on a tee ball is great but it seems to me on par 3's the variability should be a larger (perhaps more depth) green than at the teeing area.


Friar's Head #10, is exceptional variability but the cool part of that is the green is real deep not that the teeing area provides different distances. 


Baltusrol #4 has a very good green but the fact that you can play it from 120 to ??? does nothing IMO.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2019, 09:06:32 AM »

Also, though I would prefer smaller tee boxes everywhere,  doesn't an "oversize" tee box tend to look out of scale on a very short hole?



I thought the same, and i resisted the notion of 2 very large tee boxes on a par 3, instead of 5 over different lengths. The architect convinced me it would come out fine, and I have to agree now with him, it looks great.




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2019, 10:29:19 AM »
Doesn’t number, placing, and pattern of throw of irrigation heads need to be considered, especially from the long term maintenance and upkeep and cost perspectives?
Atb

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2019, 11:00:17 AM »
Doesn’t number, placing, and pattern of throw of irrigation heads need to be considered, especially from the long term maintenance and upkeep and cost perspectives?
Atb


Probably less costly to maintain 2 large tee boxes than 5 smaller ones covering same area?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2019, 02:02:10 PM »
Doesn’t number, placing, and pattern of throw of irrigation heads need to be considered, especially from the long term maintenance and upkeep and cost perspectives?
Atb


Probably less costly to maintain 2 large tee boxes than 5 smaller ones covering same area?



Well, you have to pick up the mower blades 3 less times.  Also, each tee needs two yards front and back as the minimum distance away to place tee markers, so five tees are larger, but may not have any more useable space in some cases.


As to irrigation, it is rare that I consider that. Typically, we design for tee space we want and figure the irrigation guy can figure a way to cover it somehow, varying sprinkler size, part and full circle, etc.


As TD notes, it is sometimes hard to put multiple tees, a flat surface on severely sloping ground without losing too much tee space.  And, you can't combine them on a downhill slope due to grade and the vision problems of seeing over the front of the forward tees to a downhill green.


As to the original question, most architects know to increase par 3 tee size by 25 to 100% on iron par 3 holes.  The back tees, used by good, and bigger divot taking players really needs to be enlarged.  Would be interesting to know who didn't know that.  it's either a tough site (if one tee) an inexperienced architect, or a contractor who holds more sway over the final product than the architect (and most good ones would also know to make par 3 tees bigger).
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2019, 02:22:35 PM »
As described, there was an issue placing more tees further back, both because of line of site over front tees and avoid excessive shaping. These are the 2 largest tees on the property by far, at 3800 square feet for the front one and 4000 square feet for the back one partially seen in the photo. They required different sprinkler heads than the rest of the tees, but that is no real issue. If you can water a large green, you can water a tee. Personally, I like the end result.






Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2019, 03:58:00 PM »

With the play it forward effort, and the aging population of golfers, do you find more courses increasing the size of the forward tees.


Does the relative narrowness of the tee provide a different metric when designing a green. Over the sane ground, would you design a different green for a wide tee than a narrow tee.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2019, 04:08:24 PM »

Pete,


The old generalized split of play was 1%(7000+)/17%(6800)55%(6350)/19%(5750)/8%(<5000). 


Assuming 5 tees (and not 6 or 7 as proposed by Longleaf System, I have now evened out the
55%(6350) and 19%(5750) at about 37.5% of tee space each, because more folks are playing forward, and because dammit, more folks ought to be.
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Most management companies have put the typical blue tees forward every weekend day anyway, setting up the courses closer to 6000 yards to speed play.
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Certainly a wide tee with different angle options can be a great opportunity for a wider green, but so can a narrow tee.  I supposed a wide tee to a long narrow green, requiring fade one day, draw the next could also be a nice design play, but I can't recall doing that at the moment.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tee Box Sizes
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 08:39:04 AM »
Peter


I have sympathy with your take.  I am often perplexed by teeing areas which are large in length, but not width.  I am partial to small rectangular tees tucked off to sides of main teeing areas, especially when native growth surround the tees.  But I am conscious these damn things can be a maintenance nightmare.  What makes this type of tee attractive on downhill holes is often times the only practical solution is small teeing areas because of the slopes involved.  See below for an example.


I watched a tee about this big being aerated etc one day and it was a pain for the crew!

Ciao
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