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Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2019, 11:25:34 AM »
I tend to agree with Ira on this one for the reasons he states...as well as the marketing issue seems mostly myth.

As was stated before, I'd bet less than 10% of golfers actually care about who designed the course, (even if all of us in the tree house probably do), and actually make travel decisions based on this.

And the marketing cuts both ways, I can't see myself ever visiting the World Golf HOF to play the over hyped King & Bear, Slammer & Squire courses.  I don't see them getting any love on this site, and given they still regularly play that crappy Gary Player commercial, (that's gotta be over 10 years old) on the golf channel, I'm guessing business ain't so hot.


« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 11:38:03 AM by Kalen Braley »

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2019, 03:35:42 PM »
If you want mass appeal being able to put a marquee name GH with the list already in place you increase your marketing appeal, simple. Would the Sheep Ranch course by GH do something that is sorely needed design wise? No, I doubt that, but MK could now claim he has what many would consider all the best present minimalist architects featured in his resort.


Is there anybody who would choose Streamsong over Bandon and Barnbougle on the basis that Gil has also built a course there?  At some point, the names don't matter.




For return business, certainly, the names don't matter.  And return business is the most important thing:  that's the reason Bandon is so successful.

Jon Wiggett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2019, 03:55:55 PM »
If you want mass appeal being able to put a marquee name GH with the list already in place you increase your marketing appeal, simple. Would the Sheep Ranch course by GH do something that is sorely needed design wise? No, I doubt that, but MK could now claim he has what many would consider all the best present minimalist architects featured in his resort.


Is there anybody who would choose Streamsong over Bandon and Barnbougle on the basis that Gil has also built a course there?  At some point, the names don't matter.




For return business, certainly, the names don't matter.  And return business is the most important thing:  that's the reason Bandon is so successful.



Tom,


having never played either I am possibly not the best placed person to judge but on the information I know and the time of year I would be travelling I probably choose Streamsong over Bandon. As to the name of the GCA being important. I think you are spot on in that it is the overall offer and experience on offer which makes people come back time after time.


Jon

William_G

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2019, 11:48:45 PM »
If you want mass appeal being able to put a marquee name GH with the list already in place you increase your marketing appeal, simple. Would the Sheep Ranch course by GH do something that is sorely needed design wise? No, I doubt that, but MK could now claim he has what many would consider all the best present minimalist architects featured in his resort.


Is there anybody who would choose Streamsong over Bandon and Barnbougle on the basis that Gil has also built a course there?  At some point, the names don't matter.




For return business, certainly, the names don't matter.  And return business is the most important thing:  that's the reason Bandon is so successful.


correct


Sedge Valley by Doak will not be the reason people return to Sand Valley, and for anyone confident in what they do, this is hard to admit
It's all about the golf!

Eric Smith

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2019, 07:43:11 AM »
Will I Am: that’s a decent rebuttal to Tom’s point about Streamsong and Gil, but it seems in your rush to spike a TD, you never had possession. Sedge Valley will most definitely be the reason some people return to Sand Valley, only a fool would think otherwise - and I am not calling you a fool!


William_G

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2019, 08:12:25 PM »
Will I Am: that’s a decent rebuttal to Tom’s point about Streamsong and Gil, but it seems in your rush to spike a TD, you never had possession. Sedge Valley will most definitely be the reason some people return to Sand Valley, only a fool would think otherwise - and I am not calling you a fool!


hahaha, that is funny and thoughtful  ;D


I'm going back whoever the ffff designs another course there, the grass courts are what I'm talking about



It's all about the golf!

Eric Smith

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2019, 08:22:24 PM »
Will I Am: that’s a decent rebuttal to Tom’s point about Streamsong and Gil, but it seems in your rush to spike a TD, you never had possession. Sedge Valley will most definitely be the reason some people return to Sand Valley, only a fool would think otherwise - and I am not calling you a fool!


hahaha, that is funny and thoughtful  ;D


I'm going back whoever the ffff designs another course there, the grass courts are what I'm talking about


It’s all about the tennis!;D

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2019, 09:25:48 PM »


Is there anybody who would choose Streamsong over Bandon and Barnbougle on the basis that Gil has also built a course there?  At some point, the names don't matter.




For return business, certainly, the names don't matter.  And return business is the most important thing:  that's the reason Bandon is so successful.


correct


Sedge Valley by Doak will not be the reason people return to Sand Valley, and for anyone confident in what they do, this is hard to admit


William:


Don’t confuse the product and the architect’s name.


My post was that no one cares who’s the designer of the next course in Bandon.  It already has 4x of the world top 100.  The next course itself may matter, in terms of whether people stay longer or not, but the designer’s name is irrelevant.


Sage Valley has the potential to be the best course at Sand Valley, or the worst.  The product will certainly matter there.  My name never matters to the golfer ... but the product definitely matters to the client.  I was just pointing out Jeff has it backwards.


A few years ago, Grand Traverse Resort in my hometown was trying to decide whom to hire for their next courses ... so they polled a bunch of meeting planners, who told them Gary Player and Lee Trevino would be the best designers to pair with their Jack Nicklaus course.  😀  How well do you think that has worked out for them?

Brock Lynch

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2019, 10:56:35 PM »


My post was that no one cares who’s the designer of the next course in Bandon.  It already has 4x of the world top 100.  The next course itself may matter, in terms of whether people stay longer or not, but the designer’s name is irrelevant.



Tom,


Is that the only reason that MK is building another course at Bandon? To get people to stay longer? People can't get enough of Bandon as it is now.


Also, I think the designer, not the designers name, is important. I'm guessing that MK feels that C&C will keep the feel of Bandon in building the 5th course and GH may not have. Just a guess.


Cheers

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2019, 01:01:34 AM »


Is there anybody who would choose Streamsong over Bandon and Barnbougle on the basis that Gil has also built a course there?  At some point, the names don't matter.




For return business, certainly, the names don't matter.  And return business is the most important thing:  that's the reason Bandon is so successful.


correct


Sedge Valley by Doak will not be the reason people return to Sand Valley, and for anyone confident in what they do, this is hard to admit


William:


Don’t confuse the product and the architect’s name.


My post was that no one cares who’s the designer of the next course in Bandon.  It already has 4x of the world top 100.  The next course itself may matter, in terms of whether people stay longer or not, but the designer’s name is irrelevant.


Sage Valley has the potential to be the best course at Sand Valley, or the worst.  The product will certainly matter there.  My name never matters to the golfer ... but the product definitely matters to the client.  I was just pointing out Jeff has it backwards.


A few years ago, Grand Traverse Resort in my hometown was trying to decide whom to hire for their next courses ... so they polled a bunch of meeting planners, who told them Gary Player and Lee Trevino would be the best designers to pair with their Jack Nicklaus course.  😀  How well do you think that has worked out for them?

We can disagree, such are discussion boards. When they asked meeting planners, I guess they got what they deserved.

Further to the Bandon Dunes project, do you really think having the Sheep Ranch project designed by some anonymous designer is going to attract more golfers, just because it is at the BD? You will have fans of BD that will come back regardless certainly, but you have to judge the capital investment of building a new course against the revenue expected to be taken in and discount it back to NPV to justify the project.

So don't you think it more plausible for golfers to say, "hey BD just built a Gil Hanse or C&C design or Doak design, we gotta get back there and play it."?

I think the latter, as BD already have business with the present platform, but how can they increase business by adding another course? A marquee designer.  However, my thought would be not just a marquee designer, but GH as he is a marquee minimalist designer that doesn't already have a course at BD.  That is all. I could be wrong, could be right.  I certainly think a marquee designer helps for a new course at BD, but if doing another course to further increase your appeal why not add the one minimalist who isn't there?

Your name is your brand premium, which in turns allow you to charge a larger amount than the average. Even In accounting there is brand recognition which is part of intangible assets and has a value, in some cases huge value i.e. Coca-Cola.  Thus, the marquee designers have a brand premium (Doak, Hanse, C&C, Nicklaus, etc.) because they can sell their services to clients, which would allow them to get increased revenue.  I think Mike Keiser values the marquee minimalist designers such as TD, C&C etc. for the brand premium and fits very well with his resort philosophy.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2019, 02:49:39 PM »
However, I disagree that hiring different architects is not a good idea.   While, in the past, most golfers never asked who designed a course, it is starting to become fairly common now.  The "retail golfer" wants to say that he is going to a resort and playing a "Doak" or a "Coore Crenshaw" or a "Ross".  It is one of the unique things about the Monterey area - I can play Pebble, Monterey Peninsula CC Shore/Dunes and Pasatiempo (and Cypress maybe someday) providing totally different experiences.  On the other hand, I think Herb Kohler made a mistake in hiring Pete Dye to design all of the Kohler courses.  It is hard to argue with the financial success of Whistling Straits, but I think the Irish course would have been better served if designed by Coore Crenshaw or you.


The thing is, you don't really have a way of testing this. You can guess that it matters to many or most, but that doesn't make it true. You can guess that if Kohler had more variety at WS, it would be better, but that doesn't make it true. It's your honest opinion, but that doesn't mean it's a true fact. Everything beyond is mere speculation.


Me, I'd guess most care about having great, fun courses to play. And I doubt that matters if it's one designer or four. I personally don't think Mr. Dye makes great, fun courses - and I'm well aware I'm literally the only person who posts on here who believes that. And I could be completely wrong, though were I a betting man, I'd wager I'm a lot closer to most golfers than those who play and post on here.


I don't think anyone beyond a few belt notchers care that Bandon's courses are designed by a variety of designers (well, belt-notchers plus checklist guys like Matt Ward...). By all counts, it's a special setting with special courses, and that's what matters to most, not the variety of name designers. But I'm not the one signing the checks. Mr. Keiser could be right, and I could be wrong. Lord knows, I have no idea what even people around me are thinking most of the time, let along most retail golfers.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

William_G

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2019, 04:02:42 PM »
thank you Mike Keiser
It's all about the golf!

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2019, 05:13:42 PM »
Has Mike K done any golf project that was put in the ground and bombed or even not done well? 

If I was a betting man, I'm not betting against him, much less thinking he should change his current algorithm for success.

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2019, 05:32:12 PM »
There aren’t enough gca belt-notchers in the world for an architect’s name to significantly impact revenues. It surely doesn’t hurt and it may well contribute to some fawning coverage that tickles the gca intelligentsia (oxymoron alert) but it is probably negligible to the bottom line.


n.b. I’ve played the original Sheep Ranch and it was great improv golf fun. That will be missed.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 09:18:04 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2019, 09:04:50 PM »
A course’s score on the Doak scale probably influences golfers more than whether his or any other architect’s name is on the course. And the Doak scale probably still has far less influence than the magazine ratings.


Ira


PS Bandon first built its reputation on a course designed by a then unknown architect. And T. Doak was far from famous name when he designed PD.


PPS So what would be really cool is if Mike Keiser went full circle and picked a not famous architect. Bandon already is successful so he could take some risk. If he or she produces something new and valuable, it would only enhance the impact Bandon has had on gca in the US. Then again, it is easy for me to spend somebody else’s money.


PPS It would be even cooler if he picked a woman architect. That would resonate in almost no other way in terms of promoting the woman’s perspective on great architecture.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 10:02:32 PM by Ira Fishman »

Jim Nugent

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2019, 09:49:33 PM »
A course’s score on the Doak scale probably influences golfers more than whether his or any other architect’s name is on the course. And the Doak scale probably still has far less influence than the magazine ratings.

Ira

I bet most golfers, to the extent they're aware of golf course architects, think of Fazio and Nicklaus as the top of the trade.  I also suspect names of famous pro's intrigue them, along with Robert Trent Jones and Pete Dye. 

Adam Clayman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2019, 08:48:39 AM »
Construction has begun. Not sure on the progress.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Michael George

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2019, 08:54:21 AM »
For those on this string that say it doesn't matter if you have 1 or multiple designers, explain why the most successful golf resort owner in the world uses multiple designers at each resort.  Yes, they are often the same multiple people at each place (save Rod Whitman and Jim Urbina), but he hasn't hired Coore Crenshaw or Doak to design every course at a resort yet.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2019, 09:01:26 AM »
I certainly am not saying that Mike Keiser does not know what he is doing.  But correlation and causation are different.  Kohler has been very successful for a long time with four courses by the same designer.


Ira

William_G

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2019, 12:26:27 PM »
thank you Mike Keiser Jr.
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Sheep Ranch
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2019, 12:20:19 AM »
Sheep Ranch is long gone, more about the routing now


As we were watching the AT&T at Pebble, we were reminded about the potential for 5-mile point and the "E" green


cheers
It's all about the golf!