Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available

[Tommy Williamsen]

I understand that we can learn a lot about a course by watching others play it. It is poor substitute for playing it though.There are a bunch of courses that I have seen on TV for years. Playing them is different than watching pros play them. My game is really different than theirs so how I play the course doesn't resemble their play. I wonder how you would feel about PD if you only knew how a touring pro played it.

Hi Tommy,
While both being long-time members of GCA, I can't remember a time where we debated an issue.


I was intentionally a bit sarcastic when I commented about watching the pros play Muirfield Village.  Kidding but not kidding, or I have heard it called, "Kidding on the square."  Watching TV is no substitute for playing the course, or even watching a foursome of mortal golfers play a round.  However, since I've been around here a long time, I felt like you should know that I know that.

When I first saw the list of courses with the highest GD shot values, I noticed two things.  The ranking of highest shot values closely correlates with the total course ranking.  Second, the shot values at Pacific Dunes were rated notably lower (29th overall) than other courses in the top 25.  I chose Muirfield Village (12th in shot values) somewhat randomly because its shot values score was much higher.

I will restate my case for Pacific Dunes.  In twenty years of watching the Memorial tournament at Muirfield Village, I can't remember the players ever altering the trajectory of their shots.  On television, it looks like a course that requires long, straight drives and high, soft approach shots.  The presence of several strategic water hazards on the course make high, soft approaches on those holes mandatory.  Furthermore, I haven't been to Ohio, but typically courses east of the Mississippi River receive most of their 40 or so inches of annual rain in the summertime, and therefore much of the playing season features softer than ideal playing conditions.

As Sand Hills slowly rises in the ratings each year, Pacific Dunes seems to have stagnated.  Although Sand Hills has always been rated a smidge ahead, ten years ago the two were essentially 1A and 1B among modern courses.  The design variety at Pacific Dunes is hard to match.  It still may be Tom Doak's best design I've seen for pure variety.  Does any course in the world feature four consecutive par 4s with greater playing variety than holes 6, 7, 8 and 9?  Played in the four primary directions of the compass, they possess vastly different approach play requirements.


If Golf Digest is defining shot values, through the use of words and guidance, in a manner that ranks the shot values of an Ohio parkland course over a first class, sand-based, windy and bouncy golf course, then there's something wrong with the definition.  A sandy, windy course compels the player to consider trajectory and curve on most shots that aren't greenside plays.  Seaside golf is a more complex game with more demanding shot requirements.

Thanks for hearing me out, and I'm sorry if the hint of sarcasm was off-putting.

Well said. I don't disagree with you. I guess I was reacting to comments on a course that you haven't played. I have grown weary of guys saying, "The fact that course B is ranked higher than course C shows how terrible the rankings are. Of course, I haven't played either of them." You explanation makes all kind of sense. I have played MV a half dozen times and yes the course is on the soft side on the fairways but the greens were pretty firm. But yes, I think that courses that play firmer have higher shot values. Links golf is my favorite golf because you can play it on the ground or in the air.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If you have the patience, could you give another example where a golfer might consider hitting the ball lower at Muirfield Village?

The 12th, to keep the ball out of the wind.
The third to 15, because it's often into the wind and to some hole locations you'd want the ball to roll a bit to take the slope to get nearer to the hole.
The third hole has a relatively small green with slopes and water short - they commonly flight a lower wedge into that green.
Just a few off the top of my head.

[Lou_Duran]

I can think of one shot at Muirfield Village where it would be common to try to flight the ball down a bit, the approach shot on #14, in order to minimize the spin of a full wedge shot.If you have the patience, could you give another example where a golfer might consider hitting the ball lower at Muirfield Village?A small clarification.  Please note I did not say "high fade", which is a common comment about Nicklaus courses.  I have no idea whether that complaint is justified or not.  I said "high, soft approaches".Where you see quirk, perhaps I see character, and great shot variety.  Thanks for the response.  Setting someone up for the coveted 100th reply.  Next one starts a new page!

On the "small clarification", you are right that you did not say "high fade".  Perhaps I am wrong to believe that "high, soft approaches" normally suggests a fade, at least that's what I try to hit when I need to stop the ball quickly on hard surfaces. Sorry.


As to patience, you are not a flippant sort and I am happy to provide examples from my admittedly fading memory (mind you that I've only played MV once, nearly 40 years ago, though I visited the club numerous times).  Columbus and the Midwest face weather and wind closer to PD than, say, Riviera and SoCal.  As a low-ball hitter/trapper most of my life, I don't recall having to adjust for MV's firm but receptive greens.  The shot into the narrow, downhill par 3 #8 was a punch shot below the trees.  Ditto for the approach over the creek on #9 from the top of the fairway, and the tee shot into #12 with a much bigger green than the original at ANGC and a scarier pond.

I recall Nicklaus riding around with the superintendent and stopping to watch my approach into 13 from a side-hill lie.  I thinned it quail high just short of the green right, and though I couldn't see his eyes roll, I can't help but wonder if he was thinking that I had no business on his course.

There are a number of run-up shots at MV that could be executed under normal conditions.  Unfortunately, just because the pros have better control of their trajectory, distance, and spin through the air than they do by using the ground, we automatically believe that many of the courses they play have no ground game options.


I suspect that Tom Watson playing Pacific Dunes in his heyday would still flight his shots high in the air.  And perhaps we are so partial to firm, wide courses with open approaches because most of us lack a full repertoire of shots.  MV, IMO, allows for a variety of shot options, and though it is a placement course for the most part, a lot of different types of players have won on it.

[John Kirk]

Tommy, Lou and Erik,

Thanks for the responses.

At this stage of my "career" at GCA, analyzing golf courses and ranking lists is a game, where we debate the merits of the courses and ranking systems.  Occasionally I will take note of some architectural feature or trend at a golf course, or some discrepancy in a ranking system, and then make some sort of reasonable objection to it.  In general, I'm not emotionally bound to my opinions, beyond what I consider biases common to most golfers (repeat plays, close to home, etc.).  Pac Dunes is near and dear to me, for sure, but the point was to question the discrepancy of Golf Digest's overall rating with its "shot values" score.

I'm sure Muirfield Village is a gas to play.  It appears to have great topography for golf, with every shot a new challenge to be negotiated.  Do I think the requirement to carry the ball over a pond to be a inferior shot requirement?  Yes.  But Lou's comment that the course is designed for top level tournaments demands severe consequences for mishit shots.  The Memorial is among the better events held each year, a really nice TV show for those of us napping in front of the TV on Saturday and Sunday afternoons.  The pros rarely if ever complain publicly about the course; a recent Golf Digest poll placed it well within the top ten of tournament venues. 

No course should be above reasoned, critical analysis.  This is the game we play, debating the merits and shortcomings of golf courses, and the greatest courses are the most resilient under scrutiny.  Both Pacific Dunes and Muirfield Village are recognized as among the top 0.2% courses on every well-established list.