Is elevation required in the building of WILD greens ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

In thinking about some of the wildest greens I've played,
#1, # 3 and # 6 at NGLA
# 7 at FH
# 2 at PV,

It seemed that all of these greens enjoyed the benefit of elvation, sitting above their fairways.

Is elevation a critical factor in designing a wild green ?

What other WILD greens can you list ?
And, are they elevated above their fairways ?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Not necessarily.

TOC.

Not all of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I forgot to add, # 5 at Ridgewood west.

[Scratch_Nathan]

The first two wild greens that popped into my head were #s 8 and 9 at Yale.  Neither is elevated.  I need to think harder for others that I'd consider wild.

[GeoffreyC]

Pat

I had the opportunity to play CC of Scranton over the weekend and the Travis greens there are wild and a joy to play.  Ian Andrew is doing a great job up there.  Many of the greens at CC of Scranton are extensions of the ground or fairway but the wildest of all, the 18th, is set up above the fairway.  There are putts on that green that break four or more ways. There is a liberal use of puffs or mounds to separate areas within the greens.

[Evan Fleisher]

As I recall from a (fairly) recent trip to central Florida, Mystic Dunes had a fairly WILD set of greens...John Conley...would you are to comment/elaborate?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scratch Nathan,

I didn't find # 8 at Yale to be a wildly contoured green

#9 sits elevated well above the water.

[Joel_Stewart]

When I think of a wild green I think of #7 at Friars Head which is not elevated.  Bill Coore told me that they simply cleared and seeded.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel Stewart,

I think you'll find that the 7th green at FH is elevated above the fairway.  Upon review, I think you'll see that it is a hole that begins the transition from the flat farm area back up into the elevated dune area.

[Scratch_Nathan]

Patrick -

I always thought the right side "ramp" on Yale #8 would fit in perfectly on an Olympic bobsled track.  I think that's pretty wild.  As for #9, since it's downhill from the tee, didn't think that would qualify as elevated.  

[DTaylor18]

Evan, Mystic Dunes did have a wild set of greens.  The most wild one i remember, and one of the craziest I'd ever seen was the first par 5 on the front (Carolina style) nine.  I believe it was the sixth hole.  Depending on where the pin was and where your shot landed, four putts were not out of the question.  I do not remember if it was elevated or not, but I don't remember it being so.

[bg_in_rtp]

there are a number of greens at Tobacco Road (#7, #8) that are not elevated and would probably be considered WILD...both play downhill.  there are also several at Oakland Hills (#9) that have sections with huge break (maybe not considered WILD) that are also not elevated.

[BCrosby]

No. 16 at N. Berwick defines wild and it is not elevated.

[tonyt]

The Hymalayas at TOC?

[Mark_F]

Patrick Mucci,

regarding my recent post on greens that were extensions of fairways, one reply was that they weren't that common because of drainage issues.  Is this why the greens you mentioned are elevated?

Because surely it all depends upon the surrounding terrain?  If you had a green that was indistinguishable from fairway, and the fairway was a wild series of rolls, it would look out of place to have a flatter green.

How do the greens you are talking about tie in with the surrounding land?

You should tune into the Australian Open telecast in a few weeks.  Peter Thomson has been spruiking Moonah Links in the magazine preview issues, raving about the natural ledges, plateaux, hollows and swales that were simply grassed over to make greens.  Most of them are elevated, or at least shelf-type greens.  

I wouldn't have called any of them particularly wild, though.  

[SPDB]

Pat -
I have no idea what basis there would be for requiring elevation in siting WILD greens, if you mean that the arch needs depth or tons of fill to make it wild, i probably wouldn't agree.

#15 at PV is not uphill, it's wild.
#10 at Winged Foot, its downhill off the tee.  
#4 at Misquamicut - level ground.
#5 at Merion - consistent contour, but still wild.

How do you figure #6 at NGLA is uphill from its fairway (?) or its tee?

[ian]

Patrick,

The 4th and 16th at Pine valley do not have elevation but are boldly contoured.

The putting course at St. Andrew's is the most boldly contoured green I can think of and I don't remember elevation, just wild undulations.

Elevation helps with bathtubs, creases, false fronts and other similar features needing changes in height.

Elephants, muffins, spines, rolls, cross-slope, and crowns do not need any elevation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian Andrew,

I see # 4 at PV as a fairly benign green that doesn't approach the absolutely WILD contours of the 2nd green.

# 16 green seems fairly benign as well, especially compared to # 2

SPDB,

# 15 at PV sits well above its fairway, and is pitched, but not WILD by any stretch.  # 2 at PV is WILD.

# 10 at WFW sits above the surrounding land, and isn't WILD, but pitched.  The location of the tee is immaterial.

# 6 at NGLA sits above the surrounding land, like a truncated volcano, the location of the tee is immaterial.

Mark F,

You've hit on what I perceive may be a key to constructing WILD greens, elevation that creates ample natural drainage.
All of the WILD greens I mentioned sit higher then their surrounds, providing the drainage that may be necessary for these greens to succeed.

At GCGC and PHCC where most fairways seemlessly transition into greens, WILD countours, and contours are absent, except on those greens with elevations.

Scratch Nathan,

If you view WILD in the context of the geens I mentioned,
# 8 at Yale may be a stretch.  It has a neat turbo feature into the green, but I don't find the entire green WILD, as I do the others.

BCrosby & TonyT,

My memory is failing me, so let me review your candidates and get back to you with my thoughts.

[ian]

Pat,

Played there on Monday, I find those greens only barely less contoured. The valleys and rolls are just going in the opposite directions.

The point is still the same......No, elevation is not required.

[SPDB]

Pat - like Ian said, I meant the 16th at PV. If you think that green is benign, this question is a charade.

You often do this, set up rules known only to you and then dismiss others' claims arbitrarily, e.g. saying that Yale is "above the pond," - it's also downhill from its surrounds behind it and to the right. You have to put reasonable limits on the criteria, not self-serving ones.

I think the location of the tee is every bit as relevant as the location of the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Perhaps if you read the initial post on this thread more carefully, you wouldn't be confused.

I specifically mentioned the fairways that these greens sit above, not their tees.

Additionally,  I can't read your mind.  If you post # 15 at Pine Valley, I take that you mean # 15 at Pine Valley.  
How am I supposed to know you really meant # 16 at Pine Valley ?

You do that all the time, you post one thing and mean another, how can anyone guess what you really mean  
When do your posts become authentic, when you reverify them ??

And, NO, I don't consider # 16 green to be in the same league with # 2, or any of the other greens I mentioned.

Since I started the post, and gave specific examples of what I meant by WILD greens, I thought it was pretty clear and that responses would be in the context and parameters that I outlined by example.

P.S.  If you want to start a thread concerning the relationship
       between greens and tees, go right ahead.  But, the focus
       of the thread I initiated was about WILD greens and their
       elevation from their fairways

[SPDB]

The mistake was mine, I didn't expect you to read my mind
Check this out. It has been my experience that where the contours of a green are discernible in pictures, it is often the case that they possess dramatic (or WILD) character:



In the interest of equal publicity (#2)



In retrieving the photo, I noticed that no less a critic than Golf's Most Beloved Figure has this to say of #16:

On a course full of outstanding greens, the contours found at the 16th are among the very best.

Are you suggesting if I disagree with you, I should start my own thread?

I thought you posed a question. I was merely answering in the negative, and supplying examples, the same as you...my mistake...they are merely my opinions, but you could be wrong.  

Isn't is possible that the tees and greens could sit along the same grade?

[Doug Siebert]

Part of the charm of a wild green is that you can't see exactly where you want to be.  If you were hitting down into it the rolls would be all layed out for you and it'd make the approach much less challenging.  When it is elevated above you (especially with a false front thrown in) it makes it all the more challenging, which is probably one of the reasons architects save their best greens for when you can't see exactly what you are hitting to.

Though it is kind to neat to hit to a slopey green from up on high and watching your ball slowing trickling down towards the hole just the way you planned it -- and equally frustrating when a ball that was once 5 feet away ends up 50 feet away

[Joel_Stewart]

I think you'll find that the 7th green at FH is elevated above the fairway.  Upon review, I think you'll see that it is a hole that begins the transition from the flat farm area back up into the elevated dune area.

I think there is a difference between playing uphill and simply elevated.  The 7th at FH plays uphill but is a run up green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel Stewart,

The 7th green at FH sits above its fairway, and that was my criterion.

SPDB,

As I indicated, the 16th may have some nice rolling contours on its rather large surface, but the green doesn't come close to matching # 2 with respect to wild contours.

It's also rather benign when compared to # 1, # 3 and # 6 at NGLA, # 7 at FH, # 5 at Ridgewood

Ran's reference to the 16th green was in the context of the other greens at PV.  I doubt he would compare # 16 to # 2.

Using Ran's judgement is surely the formula for failure.
The man still believes that Innescrone will define the better player, with the architecture determining the outcome of all matches in the better player's favor.

He chooses to discount the architectural merits of courses such as Plainfield, Hollywood, GCGC, Old Marsh, The Medalist, Pine Tree and Boca Rio.  He feels that the architecture of those golf courses will randomly reward golfers, strictly based on luck, to the disadvantage of the better player.
 
P.S.  It is possible for greens and tees to sit at the same
       grade, but that doesn't mean that the green doesn't sit
       above its fairway or fronting rough.