[John Kavanaugh]

I'm not for chain gangs building roads when I'm out of work...

[George Pazin]

  I like that, JK.


Fascinating, bizarre thread. Revealing of all, as Bogey says, or at least strongly implies. When I first looked in, I assumed a health issue; instead I read a bunch of illuminating posts.


Thanks to everyone who shared. HNY!

[Anthony Butler]

1)  This was when I still lived in California, and on these occasions its was usually to just get bottled beers for later consumption.  But I did get pretty hammered at the bar a time or two in San Francisco! Next time you're in town, check out the Toronado on Haight..

My first apartment in San Francisco was above the Toronado on Haight. I became quite friendly with the owners, and was regularly invited down to sample the new beers on tap... (For some reason they decided that being an Australian conferred some kind of mystical beer knowledge upon me... I would say the only useful advice I provided on their beer selection was to advise them the whole 'fruit beer' thing was a fad, which may explain why they're still in business.)


The Lower Haight was an 'interesting' neighborhood at the time. I had a knife pulled on me on several occasions and a guy was stabbed to death on our front stoop at about 2am one Saturday night.  Which may explain why I soon decamped to the Upper Haight where the greatest danger was getting tossed out of the Persian 'Zub-Zub' room before you got a drink. 

[Kalen Braley]

Anthony,

Very cool!  While I do like a handful of select lambics, as a general rule I agree most fruit beer isn't that great.

P.S.  I couldn't imagine living right above that bar...I would have drank away so much money! 

[Anthony Butler]

I was clearing out my GCA message box a couple weeks ago when I came across a PM from Phil Young. He was highly recommending Keith Foster's store in Middleburg as a retail outlet for a friend of mine who had just taken delivery of a cypress pine from CPC and was planning on make a bunch of club chairs out of it.... It doesn't sound like this would have been like Foster's other store items since the wood was procured legitimately from a timber dealer near Santa Cruz who has an arrangement with the club to take any usable wood from trees removed from the property. My friend ultimately decided to sell them on the West Coast.


That said, Foster did a fine job restoring Tillinghast's Wissahickon course at the Philadelphia Cricket Club... the club is very happy with the results. As a result of his actions, that part of his career is over now.


Deservedly so, but unfortunate nonetheless.

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony,

Very cool!  While I do like a handful of select lambics, as a general rule I agree most fruit beer isn't that great.

P.S.  I couldn't imagine living right above that bar...I would have drank away so much money! 

Since I was going through a divorce at the time, there wasn't too much money to fritter away on craft beers.

Ultimately the street noise from Haight St. made it hard to get decent night's sleep, so I had to go...

[Kevin_Reilly]

the greatest danger was getting tossed out of the Persian 'Zub-Zub' room before you got a drink.

That was the Zam Zam - I had good experiences there back in the day.  Always just ordered a martini, the way you were supposed to do it. 


https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Bruno-Mooshei-Legendary-Haight-St-Bar-Owner-Dies-2724429.php

[Anthony Butler]

the greatest danger was getting tossed out of the Persian 'Zub-Zub' room before you got a drink.

That was the Zam Zam - I had good experiences there back in the day.  Always just ordered a martini, the way you were supposed to do it. 

I think I made a typo, but still I thought it was ‘Zum Zum’. At least that’s what friend who navigated me through the protocol of actually getting served there called it. Was it actually on a sign anywhere. The only sign the place was open was the security gate folded in from the street.


I agree with you on the drinks order btw, I was sitting next to a guy who ordered a martini on the rocks ‘with a twist’. Needless to say, I moved my stool several feet to the left...

[Kevin_Reilly]

Haha - good decision to separate yourself from anyone who ordered it like that!  In my post above, at the bottom, there is a link to a story about the Zam Zam.  The link keeps getting formatted as tiny text but it is there.

[V. Kmetz]

Before beginning, please note the time and that I waited more than 24 hours of not responding, vexing all the time about whether to let something die another natural disposable organic internet death or to shout after the Ferris wheel, now unmoored and rolling in distant counties, crushing the be-steepled town greens as it goes...


That's the Mr. Hyde of the internet isn't it?... that people and issues that I'd never know or see or care about or suffering I indirectly contribute to is put in front of our face, in totally random, intimate and often unexpected ways...and when other "equivalent" internet personas make their minds known, it feels like cowardice to not respond...EVEN ON A FUCKING SITE ALLEGEDLY DEVOTED TO GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE... conflict ensues.


1. I don't know this architect convict, I never knew him, and I wont ever know him, so after the factoid that a Golf Course Architect recently was guilty of such and such a crime, wtf do I care? This handful of his troubles have no bearing on any legitimate discussion for which I read, joined and participated in this board. Suggestion 1 for Ran in the spirit of 20 years anniversary: not every post should become a thread, available for comment... what would this ever advance except what it has: golfers and GCA afficiandos waxing on criminal, civil and federal justice and then, popular eating spots in San Francisco? Talk about a Beckett play!


2. And on that descent into the empathy-meter that you or I or the man in the moon carries or ought to carry...if anybody is worked up, send him a card if you like. Leave us out of it here... I don't post stories nor invite comment about the undercard of my golf life, people dying from overdoses, people losing jobs from illicit activities, people in ruin from gambling...


3. But then the particular dysfunction (?)...hypocrisy(?)...cherry-picking of various amateur pronouncements that in effect, say, it's a stupid law, or a violation not worthy of even a white-man's jail time, and how this is a misstep, an unfortunate turn and hasn't he suffered enough... replete with stupid statistics that don';t even account for the fact this is a federal crime first (and check out the conviction/prison time rate for FEDERAL felonies and violent FEDERAL crimes)


3a...and please, screw you...this law and various enforcement regimes and its amendments has been on the books for 120 years; we and our forebearers voted for the people who made these laws; and, in Philadelphia 1787, as modified by Appomattox in 1865, we all agree to abide by the structures consequent to those elections, power grabs, idealogies, appointed actors and all... Personally I judged that the preservation of the sea turtle was more important than some person having a vase made of a sea turtle shell...I voted for people who would endorse and make such laws and devise schemes for their enforcement, flawed and loopholed as they may be...but I "won" that argument, fairly, years ago...you wanna challenge that, go ahead... but this isn't the right jurisdiction, not by 100 miles.


3a. And if the linked accounts are reporting accurately, that this was a fairly remorseless, brazen act of defiance by an actor who full well knew the consequence, life-changing, career-destroying, incarceration-chancing, financial ruin of what he was doing. A few people repeated "unfortunate" or similarly soft terms....NO.... "unfortunate" would be if he was duped into transacting forbidden fruit or signed for a cargo manifest which lied about the contents...or thought he was getting one over by cheating purchasers with faux-goods (which turn out to be real)... all acts of perhaps criminal negligence but unlucky to some degree...This is "screw the law ..it's worth it to get caught," well now, own it.


4. And of all the malignant descents offered on a thread that is so far afield, a jet drone could not keep up, there's the sentiment repeatedly expressed, "it's not like he was pushing heroin or running guns...


Are you (whoever you are) out of your mind?  When we try to do something to investigate, oversee or prosecute a drug manufacturer like Purdue Pharma (who almost single-handedly re-ignited the opioid abuse crisis in this hemisphere) we hear from the same people about "constricting regulation" and "free markets" and burdensome for business   ...and gun-running...are you mad?!...for 20 years we've been massed shot in schools, in theaters, in houses of worships, at clubs, at malls, at concerts, at town halls, on campuses, in public transit...most every bullet and barrel of which came off an American assembly line or appeared on an American bill of lathing that was 100% legal...my stars (clutches pearls), how ever did they get into the hands of such deranged people...don't say gun shows run of out of tents...don't say an absence of tracking technology into guns... don't say calls for limitation on the type and number of guns a citizen can have and still maintain his/her civil right to self-defense...nope... a kicking and screaming agreement on bump stocks is all we get...for now.


You'll note that I make no ethical pronouncements about who this architect is, his character, his good or bad deeds, and what sentence he is due...not my job, but personally I hope he gets exactly what the sentencing rubric calls for...a little time in a federal pokey (not Danamora, I tell you) might be just the kind of locus penitentae he requires to refresh and rebuild and be thoroughly disabused of this or similarly brazen criminal acts... and be thankful the sea turtle isn't the judge.


cheers  vk

[Erik J. Barzeski]

1. I don't know this architect convict, I never knew him, and I wont ever know him, so after the factoid that a Golf Course Architect recently was guilty of such and such a crime, wtf do I care? This handful of his troubles have no bearing on any legitimate discussion for which I read, joined and participated in this board. Suggestion 1 for Ran in the spirit of 20 years anniversary: not every post should become a thread, available for comment... what would this ever advance except what it has: golfers and GCA afficiandos waxing on criminal, civil and federal justice and then, popular eating spots in San Francisco? Talk about a Beckett play!

It's relevant because he's a golf course architect, who had some current contracts with some bigger name clubs… I don't understand suggesting that it's completely off topic.


It also hadn't seen an update in about two days before your post to tell us that it wasn't worth discussing? 

[Jeff Loh]

VK
Awesome post!!
I'm glad you waited. Your response shows thought and deliberation. Unlike many of these comments regarding this KF chap. I do not come onto GCA to discuss piety and forgiveness. Or politics. Or half naked women.
Your post should be required reading for all as we move forward into 2019.
Thanks for taking the time to say what needed to be said.

[Sean_A]

My intention isn't to single out anybody.  Now then, I think it is easy to say subjects are off point etc, but we must remember that many of us know each other and off point subjects are ways in which we gain further insight or simply to carry on talking long after meet-ups.  Jeepers, this forum would be far less interesting if all we talked about was architecture!  I know if Ran enforced this ideal I would have left long ago because there really isn't all that much to talk about.  In the main its the same topics rehashed using different courses as examples..if we are lucky! 

Back to Mr Foster.  I think we need to appreciate that many on this board know the man.  Of course, just as is the case with any friend, even if you know your mate screwed up, you wish him well and hope the gavel doesn't come down too hard. I can't and won't fault an opinion such as this.  Friendship comes with ups and downs and to be a friend is to accept this. I may disagree about the punishment deserved or about doling out forgiveness, but that is a completely separate matter from supporting a friend because we see the situation in entirely different lights.  Nothing is as black and white as many would have the law treat people.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Isn't it fun now and then to not be an asshole and wish the worst for someone who made a mistake? #teambezos

[Lou_Duran]

Isn't it fun now and then to not be an asshole and wish the worst for someone who made a mistake? #teambezos

Sometimes it is charitable to ignore.  This is such a time.

[Jeff_Brauer]

For what it's worth, the best I can tell is that he has an Offense Level 12, and I assume a Criminal history I. He will get a 2 point reduction off the level for acceptance of responsibility. That puts him in the 6 to 12 month incarceration range unless he can find 2 more points to get down to Level 8, which allows for 0 to 6 months range.


Now when we factor in the white privilege points, he will of course walk free; just like Martha Stewart.

For all the hand wringing and gnashing of teeth on this thread, this may be the only post that matters, presuming John C is as knowledgeable about this as he seems.    For all we complain, on the few times I have had family or friends who run in with the law, I find judges follow the law.  And, despite public perceptions of unfairness, as John C points out, when you really dig into it, the system has provided a fairly logical pattern of consequences for various actions.

My guess is 0-6 months prison time. 

[Bruce Katona]

As posted earlier;  BK is hoping for community service; which can be applied to a much greater public benefit than 6 months incarceration.

[Craig Sweet]

Kalen, I would not classify a lambic as a "fruit" beer. They use natural, wild fermentation and thus are "sour". Fruit plays no part in the process.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, I would not classify a lambic as a "fruit" beer. They use natural, wild fermentation and thus are "sour". Fruit plays no part in the process.

Craig,

This initial fermentation is certainly true of the traditional lambic, but fruit lambics are a sub-genre and most certainly include fruit in whole or syrup form, even thou commonly apart of the secondary fermentation process. As I'm not a big fan of lambics in general, I can't say I've sampled many of the non-fruit versions.

Happy boozing! 

[Jeff Bergeron]

Isn't it fun now and then to not be an asshole and wish the worst for someone who made a mistake? #teambezos

Thank you John and Sean A for your posts. Having worked with Keith on two projects I know him to be a fine man of high integry and exceptional talent. He made a horrible mistake and the costs will greatly exceed the crime when the dust settles.
Why not let this rest?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The dust has settled:


Keith Foster, of Upperville, was sentenced in federal court in Alexandria Friday to 30 days in prison and one year of supervised release for selling endangered species and other wildlife parts that were illegally imported.


https://www.fauquier.com/news/former-middleburg-shop-owner-sentenced-for-selling-items-made-from/article_78d7c518-41f0-11e9-a5b5-4371256f321d.html

[Terry Lavin]

The dust has settled:


Keith Foster, of Upperville, was sentenced in federal court in Alexandria Friday to 30 days in prison and one year of supervised release for selling endangered species and other wildlife parts that were illegally imported.


https://www.fauquier.com/news/former-middleburg-shop-owner-sentenced-for-selling-items-made-from/article_78d7c518-41f0-11e9-a5b5-4371256f321d.html

This strikes me as entirely appropriate, as viewed from a distance.

[Anthony Butler]

Deleted

[mike_beene]

I think this means he can't vote. Also, does it carry restrictions for travel to some countries. Canada?

[Anthony Butler]

Keith Foster, of Upperville, was sentenced in federal court in Alexandria Friday to 30 days in prison and one year of supervised release for selling endangered species and other wildlife parts that were illegally imported.

Reading through the last page or two of this thread, it strikes me that this is why high profile (mostly white) criminals get light sentences.. either on the low side of the guidelines or, in the case of Paul Manafort, way under the recommended sentence.


Who can deny there is a common perception that, with the exception of capital crimes, the guilty party in these cases already 'suffered enough'... loss of career, income, prestige etc... Whereas a lot of poor (mostly minority) criminals were already living wretched lives according to those with the authority to decide their fate, so only a lengthy prison sentence feels like the appropriate  'punishment' for their deeds e.g the Black Woman who got a 6 year sentence for casting a provisional ballot in 2016. (Apparently neither she or the volunteer manning the polling location knew why she had been removed from voter rolls for an earlier criminal conviction.)

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