Saddest loss

[Paul Rudovsky]

Interestingly, if one looks at the Golf Magazine World 100...as well as the World 100's published by Golf Digest, top100golfcourses.com, the architects survey etc...there are literally NO World 100 courses that have been lost (note: any great course lost before the start of World 100's in 1979 is by definition excluded).


In terms of USA Top 100's (excluding courses that only appeared on Golf Digest's 1966 or '67 200 Toughest), the only one's lost to date are Wolf Run (IN), High Pointe (MI), and the original Sutton Bay (SD).


And there are two types of "losses"...property closed and no course replace it (eg Lido, High Pointe, etc.)...and major major redo (eg Timber Pointe, Shinnecock, Merion, Baltusrol).  Obviously, I am not saying these all were "losses" but they were major major redos and most of the original course is gone.


Those of you who recall the "MacWood Spoof" will recall there were 5 of the 101 that no longer existed (NLE):


--Tokyo GC (Asaka)
--CC of Havana
--Laskers (IL)
--Lido (NY)
--and, of course Foulepointe in Madagascar (which never existed...proof that the list was a spoof but a wonderful list)


One could also look at NLE from prior men's and women's majors, plus US Amateur and Amateur Championship, including:


Englewood (NJ...US Open and US Am)...I played it almost 60 years ago but have no recollection
Fresh Meadow CC (NY--US Open and PGA) sometimes cited as Tillie's best...I grew up about 3-4 miles from where it was but it was before even my time!
Pomonock (NY--PGA) in Bayside, Queens and designed by MacKenzie
Baltimore CC-Roland Park (MD)...four holes sort fo still exist...maintained essentially so they don't get overgrown...actually played these 4 about 4 years ago
Prince George's (MD-USWomen's Open)
Euclid Club (OH--US Am)
Alderwood (OR-US Am)
Churchill Valley (PA-US Woman's Open and 2 Women's PGA's)
Bay Tree Plantation (SC- Women's PGA)
Pecan Valley (TX-PGA)
Richland CC (TN-US Women's Open)


Of all the above...and the others mentioned the ones that I most regret never having had the change to play are Fresh Meadow, Lido, Pomonock, and Timber Pt (have played new Timber Pt)..sorry Tom, but I know very little about High Pointe.  The ones I have played and will miss the most are Wolf Run and Machrie.  But then again I am now too old to play Wolf Run


I would also cite as a major major redo loss The Machrie in Scotland.  Have not played the redone version, but the original was like being in a great museum!


Finally...think about one that may be disappearing...Wolf Point (TX)...very sad if it does  [size=78%].[/size]

[Tim Martin]

Let's simplify it.  Name one other course that existed in 1938 in America that came closer than the Lido to presenting the conditions players would find if they went overseas to play in The Open.

Was that the point we were arguing about?  Okay, I'll concede on that one.  Lido's budget in 1938 was probably much more like a real UK links than the few other candidates in America.


Just, let's not kid ourselves about the unimpeachable sources you and Tim were defending earlier in this thread.  As Bob Harlow's biography illustrates, money and power and their influence on the press have always had an outsized influence on the reputations of golf courses and of the people in this business.

Tom-I never intimated that the BDE was unimpeachable. You can use the Harlow quote above to try and fit your narrative but it pertains specifically to promoting golf tournaments and not the golf course's themselves.

[Tom_Doak]

So Ross and Darwin were wrong?  Because those are my sources.

You're also the one who posted the article from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, and defended Bob Harlow as a Hall of Famer when I questioned him as a source for the article.  Smells like deflection.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom-I never intimated that the BDE was unimpeachable. You can use the Harlow quote above to try and fit your narrative but it pertains specifically to promoting golf tournaments and not the golf course's themselves.

Yes, everyone knows there is a Chinese firewall between the golf writers who promote golf tournaments and the same golf writers who promote golf courses.  I don't know why I would preach any other narrative.

[Tom_Doak]

And there are two types of "losses"...property closed and no course replace it (eg Lido, High Pointe, etc.)...and major major redo (eg Timber Pointe, Shinnecock, Merion, Baltusrol).  Obviously, I am not saying these all were "losses" but they were major major redos and most of the original course is gone.


Those of you who recall the "MacWood Spoof" will recall there were 5 of the 101 that no longer existed (NLE):


--Tokyo GC (Asaka)
--CC of Havana
--Laskers (IL)
--Lido (NY)
--and, of course Foulepointe in Madagascar (which never existed...proof that the list was a spoof but a wonderful list)


One could also look at NLE from prior men's and women's majors, plus US Amateur and Amateur Championship, including:


Englewood (NJ...US Open and US Am)...I played it almost 60 years ago but have no recollection
Fresh Meadow CC (NY--US Open and PGA) sometimes cited as Tillie's best...I grew up about 3-4 miles from where it was but it was before even my time!
Pomonock (NY--PGA) in Bayside, Queens and designed by MacKenzie
Baltimore CC-Roland Park (MD)...four holes sort fo still exist...maintained essentially so they don't get overgrown...actually played these 4 about 4 years ago
Prince George's (MD-USWomen's Open)
Euclid Club (OH--US Am)
Alderwood (OR-US Am)
Churchill Valley (PA-US Woman's Open and 2 Women's PGA's)
Bay Tree Plantation (SC- Women's PGA)
Pecan Valley (TX-PGA)
Richland CC (TN-US Women's Open)

Paul:


I was surprised to see Merion on your list above . . . if we go down that road this thread could get much longer! 


Was Laskers the Flynn course I know as Mill Road Farm?


I did go to Pecan Valley the first time I was in Texas . . . there are others I'll miss more.


And last but not least, who ever cited Fresh Meadow as Tillie's best?  Was it the Brooklyn Daily Eagle?   

[Tim Martin]

Tom-I never intimated that the BDE was unimpeachable. You can use the Harlow quote above to try and fit your narrative but it pertains specifically to promoting golf tournaments and not the golf course's themselves.

Yes, everyone knows there is a Chinese firewall between the golf writers who promote golf tournaments and the same golf writers who promote golf courses.  I don't know why I would preach any other narrative.

Tom-I don't know exactly what the dynamic between golf writers who promoted golf tournaments and the same golf writers who promote golf courses was eighty or ninety years ago. Again my main interest was the uncorroborated and unsubstantiated notion that the BDE was getting greased.

[Sven Nilsen]

So Ross and Darwin were wrong?  Because those are my sources.

You're also the one who posted the article from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, and defended Bob Harlow as a Hall of Famer when I questioned him as a source for the article.  Smells like deflection.

Pardon me for providing context. 


Answer the question.  Were Ross and Darwin wrong?

[Sean_A]

This has turned into an idiotic thread.

Happy New Year

[Tom_Doak]

This has turned into an idiotic thread.

Happy New Year

Yes, indeed.  Sorry for my part in it.

[Tim Martin]

I will gladly apologize as well. Wishing everyone plenty of good golf in 2019.

[Chris_Blakely]

[quote author=Paul Rudovsky link=topic=66644.msg1593009#msg1593009 date=154620643


One could also look at NLE from prior men's and women's majors, plus US Amateur and Amateur Championship, including:


Englewood (NJ...US Open and US Am)...I played it almost 60 years ago but have no recollection
Fresh Meadow CC (NY--US Open and PGA) sometimes cited as Tillie's best...I grew up about 3-4 miles from where it was but it was before even my time!
Pomonock (NY--PGA) in Bayside, Queens and designed by MacKenzie
Baltimore CC-Roland Park (MD)...four holes sort fo still exist...maintained essentially so they don't get overgrown...actually played these 4 about 4 years ago
Prince George's (MD-USWomen's Open)
Euclid Club (OH--US Am)
Alderwood (OR-US Am)
Churchill Valley (PA-US Woman's Open and 2 Women's PGA's)
Bay Tree Plantation (SC- Women's PGA)
Pecan Valley (TX-PGA)
Richland CC (TN-US Women's Open)


Of all the above...and the others mentioned the ones that I most regret never having had the change to play are Fresh Meadow, Lido, Pomonock, and Timber Pt (have played new Timber Pt)..sorry Tom, but I know very little about High Pointe.  The ones I have played and will miss the most are Wolf Run and Machrie.  But then again I am now too old to play Wolf Run


I would also cite as a major major redo loss The Machrie in Scotland.  Have not played the redone version, but the original was like being in a great museum!


Finally...think about one that may be disappearing...Wolf Point (TX)...very sad if it does  [size=78%].[/size]



Pomonok was designed by Devereux Emmet and hosted the 1939 PGA Championship and was located in Pomonk neighborhood of Queens.

[Jeff Schley]

Was Laskers the Flynn course I know as Mill Road Farm?

Yes.  A seldom talked about or remembered Chicago gem.  I wonder if there is anyone alive who has actually played the course before it closed.  I think it was donated to a university (maybe U of C or Northwestern) who sold it in the early 40's for housing development.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Pomonok was designed by Devereux Emmet and hosted the 1939 PGA Championship and was located in Pomonk neighborhood of Queens.

Chris--


You are correct...mixed up Pomonok with Bayside Links by MacKenzie.  Thanks


Paul

[Scott Weersing]

I have not played any of Rees Jones tournament courses but I would like to believe they were better before Rees came in:

     https://www.reesjonesinc.com/tournament-courses.php
 
 For example, Torrey Pines, or Lake Merced.
 
 I miss Beechtree, the old holes at La Cumbre, the old holes at Ojai Valley Inn, Sharp Park, and the fictional course in the Legend of Bagger Vance

[Tommy Naccarato]

Lido is the obvious answer (for the US);  I am thinking Charles Alison's Timber Point is really a big loss too.

I think one of the things that sort of severely altered Timber Point was the Hurricane, and then flooding in 1938.  I seem to remember coming across some stuff on that.  Both the East & West coasts got hit hard in 1938.  Out here in SoCal, Lakeside and many more were altered greatly as well.

[Tom_Doak]

I think one of the things that sort of severely altered Timber Point was the Hurricane, and then flooding in 1938.  I seem to remember coming across some stuff on that.  Both the East & West coasts got hit hard in 1938.  Out here in SoCal, Lakeside and many more were altered greatly as well.

Tommy:


Yes, that 1938 hurricane on the East coast was a monster ... I've seen a post somewhere out on Long Island that shows the depth of the water after the storm surge.  The center of the storm hit right in the middle of Long Island, so Timber Point would have seen the brunt of the storm surge, and Lido the tail of it  [much like Wild Dunes was destroyed by Hurricane Hugo, and Kiawah and CC of Charleston had more limited flooding].


The Wikipedia post I looked up said 26,000 cars were destroyed in the flooding!  In 1938 !

[Sven Nilsen]

No mention of Timber Point in this piece, but it does highlight the damage to a number of other courses.


Sept. 23, 1938 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -

[Ian Andrew]

I think one of the things that sort of severely altered Timber Point was the Hurricane, and then flooding in 1938.  I seem to remember coming across some stuff on that.  Both the East & West coasts got hit hard in 1938. 

The second nine at Quogue Field Club was lost to that storm.

[Wayne_Kozun]

There is a world Top 100 that is being either completely or partially redone - Nirwana Bali.  It is being redone by the POTUS.

[Mike Davidson]

How about Canoe Brook in Summit, NJ?  North Course (Walter Travis) and South Course (Charles Alison) redesigned by Robert Trent Jones in the 50s (land swap to build a mall) and the 60s (to build a highway).  It is also now listed in the earlier mentioned link to Rees Jones Tournament courses.

[James Reader]

Ally

Re Turnberry - prior to CKH's 1938 redo of the Ailsa, the early 1920's Braid redo of the Kintyre course was supposedly just as highly rated or even higher rated than the Ailsa, and that was without the benefit of the sea holes. Apparently the greens were quite adventurous. It was completely destroyed by the war whereas the Ailsa got off comparatively lightly. of the two I think I'd have most liked to have seen the Kintyre course. At least with the Ailsa, most of the landforms are still there so you have an idea.

One other I'd loved to have seen and that is the nine hole course on the Holy Island of Lindisfarne. I came across a plan of the course in an old mag and last year I took the opportunity to stop off and have a quick look at the land it was on and it was wild. I doubt it would have been great but I'm sure it would have been great fun.

Niall

If this photo of the bunker on the 9th is anything to go by, it certainly looks like the Holy Island course could have been fun!


https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/england/north-east/northumberland/320-holy-island-golf-club-northumberland

[Mark Pearce]

Ally

Re Turnberry - prior to CKH's 1938 redo of the Ailsa, the early 1920's Braid redo of the Kintyre course was supposedly just as highly rated or even higher rated than the Ailsa, and that was without the benefit of the sea holes. Apparently the greens were quite adventurous. It was completely destroyed by the war whereas the Ailsa got off comparatively lightly. of the two I think I'd have most liked to have seen the Kintyre course. At least with the Ailsa, most of the landforms are still there so you have an idea.

One other I'd loved to have seen and that is the nine hole course on the Holy Island of Lindisfarne. I came across a plan of the course in an old mag and last year I took the opportunity to stop off and have a quick look at the land it was on and it was wild. I doubt it would have been great but I'm sure it would have been great fun.

Niall

If this photo of the bunker on the 9th is anything to go by, it certainly looks like the Holy Island course could have been fun!


https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/england/north-east/northumberland/320-holy-island-golf-club-northumberland

There are some pretty spectacular dunes and blow outs on the North East coast of England.  Anyone playing Bamburgh Castle will be close to some spectacular dunesland.  I suspect Holy Island (between Bamburgh and Goswick, for anyone attending BUDA this year) could have been astonishing.

[Niall C]

James

Thanks for that link. Sadly the computer is playing up at the moment and haven't been able to get on to the site. BTW golfsmissinglinks is a great site is it not ?

Niall

[James Reader]

It is Niall.  I only found it a few weeks ago but it’s fascinating. The research that’s gone into putting it together is incredible.


Another site to spend far too much of my time reading!

[Peter Flory]

Wow, what a site that is.