[David_Elvins]

I am with JK on this.  The new rule allowing a player to pick up their ball and inspect it for damage without informing their marker is a disgrace. 


Open invitation to give yourself a preferred life if your playing partners are 50 yards away.

[Philip Hensley]

From Paul Goydos:


“For those clamoring for relief from divots,  I'm reminded of the  late Bruce Edwards when asked about the difference between Greg Norman and Tom Watson( he caddied for both). When Norman was in a divot he wanted relief, when Watson was in one he would say  " Watch This"”[/font]

[Kalen Braley]

Well if we all had Tom F'ing Watson's swing, then yes I would concur, divots wouldn't really matter so much would they.

P.S.  Last I checked, you don't have to take relief from that cart path, or GUR, or immovable obstruction either ....

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Last I checked, you don't have to take relief from that cart path, or GUR, or immovable obstruction either ....

Of course not.

Page 2: https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2017/rules-modernization/downloadable-material/Certain%20Topics%20or%20Proposals%20Not%20Addressed%20in%20the%20Proposed%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019.pdf

(There's a better version because it's not based on the proposed rules at the R&A site, but you can't directly link to it, so I've added this link instead.)

[Lou_Duran]

Would the gurus be in favor of having courses introduce a local rule allowing a ball that is in or touches a divot to be treated as being in GUR?  Or maybe courses in the south which do not overseed should provide a piece of carpet to each player and require lift and place when the ball lies in a closely mown area.  Ours is a medium-volume course, but with nearly three months to go before the grass starts growing again, the landing zones already look like mine fields.  Between divots and tight lies, I think our course rating in the winter should be 2-3 strokes higher.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Would the gurus be in favor of having courses introduce a local rule allowing a ball that is in or touches a divot to be treated as being in GUR?

No.

[Pete_Pittock]

In the spirit of pace of play it is okay to drive your golf cart on the green. Not a big step up from pulling your pull cart.

[Jeff Schley]

In the spirit of pace of play it is okay to drive your golf cart on the green. Not a big step up from pulling your pull cart.

Yeah ..... POTUS certainly has already allowed himself to do this. 

Might as well say anything inside the leather is good while we are at it.   

[jeffwarne]

From Paul Goydos:


“ When Norman was in a divot he wanted relief, when Watson was in one he would say  " Watch This"”

That's really all that need be said about the state of golf, the need for "new rules", and to bring it ON Topic-architecture itself.

[Lou_Duran]

That's really all that need be said about the state of golf, the need for "new rules", and to bring it ON Topic-architecture itself.

I don't know Jeff, I have the last page, #522, of the new "Official Guide to the Rules of Golf" in front of me.  This compares to the book it replaces at 585 plus an index of maybe 100 or so pages.  So, maybe we are going in the right direction in golf.


As a golf professional, do you really believe that the complexity of the rules affects the number of golfers or the amount or rounds played?  i wonder what percentage of golfers give a second thought to playing a ball in a divot as it lies.


My impression is that golf is already bifurcated: a relatively small percentage play mostly by the rules; a middle number play by a loose interpretation of the rules adjusted to their circumstances; and a sizable # who just beat the ball toward a target, at times holing out, sometimes just moving on to the next tee.  Golf is a big world.


Erik,


I don't see a compelling reason for not allowing course committees to adopt a local rule based on the condition of the fairways.  For example, a course can have so much winter kill or suffered through long periods of rain that it would be impractical to mark specific areas as AGC.  Where bermuda goes dormant for 4-5 months and balls collect in low spots, the ensuing divot fields change the complexion of the game.  I am a play it as it lies type, but Kalen is hardly the only one raising the issue; it is by far the #1 complaint I hear from fellow golfers who don't understand why a white line around some imperfect though often playable patch of turf allows them a free drop, but not so from a deep gash in the ground made by another golfer (though if it was caused by an animal, free relief is allowed).


The rules empower the local committee to take liberties with respect to OB, LB, and calamity scores.  Going one step further on this slippery slope is of little consequence, or so it seems to me. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I don't see a compelling reason for not allowing course committees to adopt a local rule based on the condition of the fairways.

If the course wishes to allow lift, clean, and place in any fairway, they can certainly do that. Allowing relief for "divot holes" would not be a valid Local Rule, nor would the USGA approve it. It fundamentally changes the game. Did you read the PDF?

I know of one course that, in a big dip in the fairway where a majority of the balls collected, put up four stakes to define a quadrilateral and allowed lift, clean, and place anywhere in that region. Whether the USGA would approve such a use (it wasn't GUR because you wouldn't be taking complete relief), i don't know.

For example, a course can have so much winter kill or suffered through long periods of rain that it would be impractical to mark specific areas as AGC.

That's an entirely different thing. Courses can have "winter rules" in effect. They cannot put them into effect for divot holes only.

I am a play it as it lies type, but Kalen is hardly the only one raising the issue; it is by far the #1 complaint I hear from fellow golfers who don't understand why a white line around some imperfect though often playable patch of turf allows them a free drop, but not so from a deep gash in the ground made by another golfer (though if it was caused by an animal, free relief is allowed).

I don't know what you want from me here. The USGA has the same position on this as I have.

The rules empower the local committee to take liberties with respect to OB, LB, and calamity scores.  Going one step further on this slippery slope is of little consequence, or so it seems to me.

It changes a fundamental part of golf beyond what the USGA allows.

Sometimes you get good luck. Sometimes you get bad luck. Overcome some adversity once every few hundred tee shots.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

https://twitter.com/LouStagner/status/1076968980156465152

I've done testing. Dave Pelz has done testing. More and more people are doing testing.

And all of us/them are coming to the same conclusion: leaving the flagstick in will help people make more putts.

IMO this is a big mistake by the R&A/USGA. Their stated goal of making the game faster may even do the opposite: make the game slower as some players take the flagstick out, and others put it back in. Multiple times per green is a possibility.

[Pete_Pittock]

https://twitter.com/LouStagner/status/1076968980156465152

I've done testing. Dave Pelz has done testing. More and more people are doing testing.

And all of us/them are coming to the same conclusion: leaving the flagstick in will help people make more putts.

IMO this is a big mistake by the R&A/USGA. Their stated goal of making the game faster may even do the opposite: make the game slower as some players take the flagstick out, and others put it back in. Multiple times per green is a possibility.

To me it is all about the structure of the flagstick. The larger (or stiffer) it is the more likely I will pull the flagstick

[Kyle Harris]

Well if we all had Tom F'ing Watson's swing, then yes I would concur, divots wouldn't really matter so much would they.

P.S.  Last I checked, you don't have to take relief from that cart path, or GUR, or immovable obstruction either ....

So hitting from a divot is a skill.


Glad you finally acknowledge that - now go acquire the skill and kindly keep quiet.

[Kalen Braley]

Well if we all had Tom F'ing Watson's swing, then yes I would concur, divots wouldn't really matter so much would they.

P.S.  Last I checked, you don't have to take relief from that cart path, or GUR, or immovable obstruction either ....

So hitting from a divot is a skill.


Glad you finally acknowledge that - now go acquire the skill and kindly keep quiet.

Merry Christmas to you to Kyle...


P.S. Using your brain is also a skill, kindly keep quiet until you can acquire that as well!

[Steve Wilson]

We would have to check on with Rich Goodale about this, but I was told on the first tee at Dornoch back in the 1990s by the starter that there was a local rule treating divots as GUR.  I don't know if this was true, and if true was it kosher by the Rules of Golf at the time, or if it was just a scheme on the part of the club to keep tourists with dodgy swing from creating more and deeper furrows at RDGC.   

[John Kavanaugh]

The starter at Pinehurst #2 recently encouraged me and a group of GCAers to cheat throughout the round. Including taking a breakfast ball. Starters and rangers, the best reason to avoid public resorts.


I was so disgusted by the end of the round I regrettably forgot to congratulate a buddy on a good shot. Cost me a friendship.

[SL_Solow]

I have been thinking about this thread as well as the thread on handicaps.  There is a basic disconnect between the USGA and many of those posting which arises out of differences in underlying assumptions.  I am familiar with the USGA's views not only from the text of the Rules but also from experience having worked tournaments and being involved in administering handicaps.  The USGA starts with the assumption that "golf is a game of honor".  Players are trusted to administer the rules fairly, to act honestly, to call penalties on themselves and to accurately report their scores.  In working local tournaments, I think that the vast majority of players live up to that credo.  Officials are not there to "call fouls', rather they are there to help players understand the rules so that they may avoid unnecessary penalties.  On the club/casual level, rules are often honored in the breach and, absent a strong handicap committee, scores are not monitored.  Thus the opportunity for a few miscreants to inflate their handicaps.  I suggest that the vast majority of players maintain handicaps that are, for all practical purposes, accurate.  I concur that the problem would be reduced if only tournament rounds counted.  But the number of participants in tournaments, even at the club level, has decreased in recent years.  So unless it is determined that handicaps are unnecessary, that solution will not satisfy.  I suppose the best solution would be for clubs to shoulder the burden and take seriously their duty to monitor scores and adjust handicaps.  I won't hold my breath.

[Peter Pallotta]

SL -
I've been unfair to the USGA in the past, but I do think the 'disconnect' is one of the most important things they need to address - on rules, equipment, their role etc etc.
With such an historic organization and with top flight and committed staff, I'm surprised that the USGA isn't better at 'communications'.
One 30 second spot (on rules) during the US Open could do wonders. Simple, direct: a talking head using much of the language from your post.
Peter
For my tastes, I think they should stop worrying about being hip and modern and go back to being stuffy and old fashioned, in both substance and style.

[V. Kmetz]

These rule discussions and all their angles, (and ones I've not seen mentioned like "root rules" and "leaf rules") pull me further toward:


1. the simplicity of bifurcating/delineating Tournament Golf from "Open" or Recreational Golf in handicap, in equipment, in rules procedure(s). The latter you play with as hot equipment as money can buy, and widely liberal, (time-saving) rules, in which you carry one handicap; and the former we play with narrow equipment standards and impartial, exacting procedure where elite competitive trophies are won and associated prize money is at stake and a different handicap is tallied. I sincerely offer that it would be a trifecta win for so many ills that concern both the conscientious and specious offerings I see on this board-

• manufacturers and advertisers would nearly double the market reach...
• club and public players could have nearly twice the competition(s) format...
• The governing bodies and the now fattened industry could come to a sensible agreement on tournament-led equipment standards which have now inured us to a bombing, gauging equipment show; a place where classic architecture is under threat by largess and necessary maintenance practices to keep elite competition scores artificially in historic parameters.
• the posters who advertise a more spartan aesthetic, and who decry a loss of integrity in revised rules would retain the game's historical locus and its public exhibition entirely in their camp. They wouldn't have to bother with sandbaggers, cartballers, rules-ignorant opponents, nor would they have to hear from any bleeding hearts about whether Lexi's mark replacement constitutes a cheat, a breach or an act with human consequences...they could make those truths however they want them, as she (and any other violator) is playing "their" game.

2.  The second place these discussions have pushed me further is to say that there is a rather rich nuance, a humorous environmental context that comes from the sandbagger, the vanity handicapper, the rules ignorant, the shaver, the ball-mover, the cartballer, and all the so-called integrity-wanting behavior that goes/has gone on in golf...as it does in life.  I have never, not once, felt I was ever "serving the game"... I was always using the game for human recreational enjoyment, it was there for that...the wisdoms, the karma, the odd occurrences that can make the game rich, were never "Sui Generis" of Golf, but "Sui Generis" of human life...able to be frequently found in Golf, which makes the game stand out.


To close and amplify, I must relate a story:


For 35 years I have been associated with a club where at least a quarter of the members "manage" their handicaps like a stock portfolio, accented by genuine reversals and bonanzas that reveal themselves over a season.  Long the standard bearer for such behavior has been one "IK," a man who was a 14 from birth, though he can play like a 9 or a 20 depending on its advantage to his tally....


One memorable Saturday morning some years ago, IK had a 25 foot putt for par-4 directly on the line of his opponent who had half as much for birdie-3.... I should note that in his game (where a total of $2000 - $5000 is regularly exchanged via a series of complicated rules/wager schemes, including Vegases, greenies, reversals, in both team and individual tallies) a birdie would have been about a $800 setback...


"IK" went through the whole shebang from every angle with me reading the putt: "What does it do; how fast do you think it is...are you sure?...etc, etc" My final call was about 2 cups right, with uphill speed..." IK blasted it a full foot right and maybe six feet past the hole...berating/teasing me in mock disgust: "That's the worst read you've given me in 30 years...Are you drunk? Do you need glasses? Did these guys pay you off in the parking lot?"....


Perhaps I don't need to tell you that his opponent, hoping to get a bit of information off his putt, had more question marks on his face than there are on The Riddler's costume...he came no where near making his 12 footer for birdie-3, instead settling for a par from just outside the leather, which cost IK about 80 bucks (but not $800).


As we walked off the green, IK (who insists that I'm the caddie when the stakes are big) taps me in the back of the leg with his putter, and mutters under his breath..."Lose small. Win big"...


From that day on, it became the fifth of what I call the IK Rules:

• Never make a putt if you don't have to.
• Just hang around, the other guy will fuck it up
• If you've got to lose a hole, lose it before a par 3 so the other guy goes first.
• Once in a while, a 7 is better than a 5.
• Lose small/win big

cheers  vk

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