PGA Moving to Frisco, TX - Drone Footage of the Land

[Erik J. Barzeski]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zf8q2ow7ec7xzne/AAB5KL53NRCxm5GGB0DZCgnea?dl=0

The land looks pretty uninteresting and flat to me (but what do I know), and the PGA says they are going to build:

Two championship golf courses, a short course, and practice areas totaling 45 holes; a clubhouse; Class AA office space; a 500-room Omni resort and 127,000-square-foot conference center; a technologically advanced retail village; parks and open space plus several miles of trails, will complement this unique, signature development.

http://info.thepgaofamerica.com/acton/attachment/25751/f-7c88a8dd-f518-4ebf-b3d2-1b8de8afbb27/1/-/-/-/-/PGA-Frisco-HQ-Release.pdf?sid=TV2:is7vsLcxw

So, from an architectural standpoint, how interesting does the land look? Will architects here be bidding on and building the courses, or has the PGA already chosen Fazio and, I don't know, a Jones to build the courses?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pre selected Hanse and Beau Welling, last I heard.


I have routed a course on that site, maybe 20 years ago. Nicklaus and a few others have, too. Perfect for slamming a real estate course in to maximum density, lol. Not as much h for golf. Might be a good site for the full Faz landscape treatment.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I have routed a course on that site, maybe 20 years ago. Nicklaus and a few others have, too. Perfect for slamming a real estate course in to maximum density, lol. Not as much h for golf. Might be a good site for the full Faz landscape treatment.

Thanks. And bummer.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I have routed a course on that site, maybe 20 years ago. Nicklaus and a few others have, too. Perfect for slamming a real estate course in to maximum density, lol. Not as much h for golf. Might be a good site for the full Faz landscape treatment.

Thanks. And bummer.

Hi Erik
Would you be bummed if someone told you we were building a golf course on a dead flat cattle ranch?
Cheers

[Lou_Duran]

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2018/12/04/pga-america-announces-hq-move-frisco-520-million-deal

[Jason Topp]

The economics of subsidizing these sorts of projects baffles me - particularly this one. 

[Jim Hoak]

Why don't we hold off judgment on the course till it is built--or at least designed?  I have faith that Hanse will do a good job.
Does this land look any worse than the land on which the Rio Olympic course was built?  Not to me!  And that course was well received.

[Tim Gavrich]

What's the story with that random-looking raised platform-type piece of ground? Looks like a cool spot for a short uphill par 3 to a green wedged onto one of the front corners of it, followed by a cool raised tee area for the following hole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The economics of subsidizing these sorts of projects baffles me - particularly this one.

I read somewhere else that DFW area, which had 2 or 3 different proposals to Amazon, was using that framework to pursue up to 20 other different corporate deals.  It may be this subsidy seemed small compared to the proposed Amazon one, even if it seems large for estimated $2.5B economic benefit over ten years.


What struck me as pie in the sky was much of the proposed retail space devoted to golf related merchandise.  Hey, wonder if they'll ask me to move my office over there and pay exorbitant rent to work next to a Gil Hanse golf course......

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Would you be bummed if someone told you we were building a golf course on a dead flat cattle ranch?

I would generally prefer some elevation change throughout the site.

Obviously there are some great pretty flat golf courses. But, were I given a choice, I'd take a bit of land with some movement.

[Jason Topp]

I just looked at the drone footage.  It is a little tough for me to decipher but the land looked much more interesting than I would have guessed from some of the earlier posts. 

[Ken Fry]

So what happens to the PGA Village concept in all this??  Courses and resort not affected?


Ken

[Lou_Duran]

This project has been rumored for 5 years or so, though at the beginning, the North Texas PGA was the driving force behind it.  Even back then, Beau Welling was mentioned as one of the designers (can't remember who the other one was, but it wasn't Hanse or a name I recognized at the time).


I drove the perimeter of the property as best I could this afternoon and got the sense that the land could be much more interesting than what I previously thought.  I understand that the plans for the golf courses are very preliminary ("pre-design"), but the map below gives a better idea of the project.


https://www.friscotexas.gov/DocumentCenter/View/16972/Property-Map

I personally think that government should not get involved in subsidizing golf, especially when the private sector is able to meet demand.  With the price of land at $3+/s.f., no developer I know would undertake such a project.  I haven't looked at the economics, but much of the governments' (local and state) contributions are rebates on various sales tax revenues generated by the project.  The best I can tell, there will be $25 Million in general obligation bonds issued for which the city is on the hook for.  Street additions and related infrastructure are not incremental, though accelerated by a couple of years.

[mike_beene]

Although I don't know any of the details , I assume this is similar to Frisco landing the Dallas Cowboys facility, the soccer stadium, etc. the town has grown very fast and is at the intersection of the tollway and the other tollway . Lou will know much more about this, and accurately told me it was going to happen at least two years ago. We evidently intend to pass Chicago in population so this stuff keeps coming.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

With the price of land at $3+/s.f.

Curious more than anything, but where does that figure come from? My plot of land is really overpriced at $3/square foot let alone the "+". So again, where does $3+ come from? This is just out-of-the-way farmland type land right now, no?

[Mike_Young]

The really interesting thing here is Florida.  This was a concerted effort to make a distinction between the PGA and the PGA Tour.  But  winter weather etc is going to be a little different.  Sounds like PGA show could end up moving with the deal also...not sure about where it would be out there but bet its being discussed.

[mike_beene]

This really isn't "out of the way farmland". It was 10 years ago. Probably 30 minutes on a toll road to DFW airport. 30 minutes to downtown Dallas. In traffic ,double that. There is a lot of infrastructure in place.

[mike_beene]

Perhaps a way to describe it is a corporate headquarters area. Probably what White Plains, NY was some years ago

[Lou_Duran]

Erik,


The City of Frisco purchased 390 acres just east of the subject this past winter for $61 Million.  If my math is right, that's $3.50+ p.s.f.  Jerry Jones of Cowboys fame has several tracts in the area, some very close by that received zoning from Ag to some very intense uses (no apartments, as one of the council members joked), and some in Prosper just across SH 380 in various stages of development.  As Mike notes, this area is in hyper-drive right now, and though there is thousands of acres of undeveloped land all around, anything close to any major roads is $$$$$. 


The PGA site is part of 2,500 acre ranch purchased by Hunt Realty not too long ago.  I've seen what the developers say they're paying for the 592+/- acres, and I think it is $60 Million or $2.30 p.s.f.  I suspect that Hunt is using this initial sale to kick-start their multi-use master plan, with subsequent sales of what was essentially poor farm land (saw a cotton field not far from there today) going for much more.


Mike,


Six months+ ago, when I started hearing the details (everyone was sworn to secrecy, but you know how that goes) from both sides, I became pessimistic.  Word from the folks down in FL was that the Frisco deal was being shopped around and there was a strong preference for staying put if the local community would up their commitments.  Even as recently two months ago when a friend told me he had it from the highest source that the deal was done, I still thought it was 50/50.   My batting average is not as good as it used to be, just like my golf game.   

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The City of Frisco purchased 390 acres just east of the subject this past winter for $61 Million.  If my math is right, that's $3.50+ p.s.f.  Jerry Jones of Cowboys fame has several tracts in the area, some very close by that received zoning from Ag to some very intense uses (no apartments, as one of the council members joked), and some in Prosper just across SH 380 in various stages of development.  As Mike notes, this area is in hyper-drive right now, and though there is thousands of acres of undeveloped land all around, anything close to any major roads is $$$$$.

Thanks, and wow. I think I thought it was a bit further out from Dallas than it appears to be - 32 minutes to downtown Dallas. I thought it was closer to an hour or so. Still, I'm a little surprised at $3.59/sf. Ouch.

Thank you for the added information. I appreciate it.

[Lou_Duran]

I haven't ventured much into the property but there seems to be some nice elevation changes and rolling terrain on the western part that currently serves as a park for mountain bike and hiking trails.  There is also quite a bit of flood prone land which they will have to work around, probably part of the reason why the price p.s.f. is a "bargain" in comparison to the 390 acres bought earlier this year by the city.  I would not be surprised if both courses set a new standard for north Texas, and the developers will probably encounter far fewer difficulties building the courses than at Trinity Forest.


The PGA has already signed a joint agreement with North Texas State University which will be building a new campus just to the east of the PGA headquarters site (on part of the aforementioned 390 acres purchased by Frisco) to develop various golf related programs for students and PGA members.  For selfish reasons, I am hoping that the agreement with the Frisco Independent School District allowing its high school teams use of the facilities is expanded to include those from smaller nearby districts.  And I also hope that the courses will be generous in hosting USGA and state qualifying rounds and tournaments, a burden of sorts that is not widely shared by some clubs in the area.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

The PGA posted an image of their master plan for Frisco on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PGA/status/1120436763632254977


Two courses one designed by Gil Hanse and another by Beau Welling. A practice facility and a short course also included.


Here's the direct URL for the image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4yXS0YX4AEVjk_.jpg


East Course (Hanse): https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4yfeRoXsAEPlOy.jpg

[Paul Carey]

Mike Nuzzo wrote:

“Hi Erik
Would you be bummed if someone told you we were building a golf course on a dead flat cattle ranch?
Cheers”



Now that’s funny

[Adam_Messix]

The really interesting thing here is Florida.  This was a concerted effort to make a distinction between the PGA and the PGA Tour.  But  winter weather etc is going to be a little different.  Sounds like PGA show could end up moving with the deal also...not sure about where it would be out there but bet its being discussed.

Mike


The PGA does not own the Orlando show anymore, Reed Expositions does so a move because of the association moving is unlikely.  Unlike the industry show which is smaller there are few facilities big enough to handle it.

[Jim Hoak]

I have walked and driven the land, and it is a very nice piece of rolling farmland with some creeks, bluffs and hills.  I am a firm believer that you can't judge the true quality of a course until it is built--and probably open and tweaked for a few years--, but there is nothing about this piece of land that raises cautionary concerns about the quality of the course that may result.