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James Brown

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Original Dornoch Routing
« on: November 22, 2018, 09:39:16 PM »
Does anyone here have a online reference where I can find the “original” 1886 Tom Morris routing for Dornoch?  I can’t seem to find it anywhere.  There is a picture on the wall in the clubhouse but I don’t have an image of it.


What I am really curious about is how many holes on the Struie course are from the  Tom Morris layout. 
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 03:52:10 AM »

James,


I would suggest your best course of action would be to get in touch with Rich G on here. I would be very surprised if he does not know where this info can be acquired.
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Rich Goodale

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 05:16:01 AM »
Thanks, Jon


Hi James


Your best initial source would be to buy a copy of Dr. John McCleod's "History of Royal Dornoch," available from the Pro Shop on line for about 20 squid +P&P.  It is an excellent hard cover book with copies of the 1892 and 1906 routings (the ones in the clubhouse).  I'm not sure that an 1886 routing exists.  Melvin Morrow might know.  I do know (through correspondence with Melvin) that many adjustments to the course were undertaken by John Sutherland in the 1886-1892 period (mostly on what is now the Struie course).  Another source is one this website that I wrote off the top of my head 15+ years ago "The Architectural History of Royal Dornoch" in the "In My Opinion" section (Spoiler Alert!--my slapdash piece has many significant errors.  One of these days I'll edit it....).


Hope this helps and keep in touch


Rich


PS-for another 20 squid you could also buy my book "Experience Royal Dornoch," which includes a brief potted history along with my comments/understandings of the evolution of the course. ;)


rfg
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Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

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Tom_Doak

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 10:44:57 AM »
I'm traveling so I can't check to be sure, but I believe six holes from the Struie were part of the original course at Dornoch.  They were replaced by 7,8,9,10,11 and 13 on the current course in 1946.


The holes from Struie were used at the end of the course.  The famous picture of Ross playing there was taken at the 17th, which is now the uphill par-3 17th on the Struie.
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James Boon

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 11:14:03 AM »
James,


I'd follow Rich's advice and get a copy of John McCleod's "History of Royal Dornoch" if you can.
Looking at my copy, there are plans of the course as it was in 1892 and 1906, as well as the current layout dating from 1948.

Tom is pretty much spot on with his memory of the layout and changes in from the 1909 to the 1948 layouts (along with Donald Ross changes to 1 and 2 in 1921). The 6th was also a new hole (originally playing to the current 11th green), 7 through 11, plus 13 also being new.

Looking at the 1892 plan, from the plan alone and without greater knowledge, the only hole on the Struie that dates from then for certain is what plays as the 18th on the Struie at present. This was the original 17th, which was followed by another shortish hole of 210yds from left of the previous green to what could be the current putting green? 3, 4 and 17 on the current Struie layout are roughly the same as the 14, 15 and 16 as was in 1892, but its difficult to say?
Hope that helps?

Cheers,
James
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 06:06:36 PM by James Boon »
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Niall C

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 11:15:47 AM »
James

The 1892 plan that Rich refers to was printed in one of the early Golfing Annuals (1892/1893 I'd imagine) and I have a copy at home. There was also a 4 or 5 page description of the course that went along with it. PM me your home email address and I'll email a copy of the plan and description once I've got them scanned.

Niall
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Rich Goodale

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 02:54:08 PM »
To simplify some of the guesses and misinformation above:


--The current 6th hole was built in 1946.  Prior to then the hole played from the current 6th tee to what is now the 11 green.
--the now 13th hole was in and out of the routing many times
--the 14th, 15th and 16th greens are pure OTM (as are the great 4th on the big course and the 4th and 17th and 18th on the old Struie.  What was the 17th on the Struie is now the 18th, and what was the great 18th is now a car park and the putting green....


Sic transit gloria struie.....

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Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

James Brown

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 05:20:06 PM »
Thank you so much for all the inputs!


I just became a Struie member earlier this year and wanted to learn some of that history. 
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James Brown

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 05:24:12 PM »
Quote from: Rich Goodale on November 23, 2018, 05:16:01 AM
Thanks, Jon


Hi James


Your best initial source would be to buy a copy of Dr. John McCleod's "History of Royal Dornoch," available from the Pro Shop on line for about 20 squid +P&P.  It is an excellent hard cover book with copies of the 1892 and 1906 routings (the ones in the clubhouse).  I'm not sure that an 1886 routing exists.  Melvin Morrow might know.  I do know (through correspondence with Melvin) that many adjustments to the course were undertaken by John Sutherland in the 1886-1892 period (mostly on what is now the Struie course).  Another source is one this website that I wrote off the top of my head 15+ years ago "The Architectural History of Royal Dornoch" in the "In My Opinion" section (Spoiler Alert!--my slapdash piece has many significant errors.  One of these days I'll edit it....).


Hope this helps and keep in touch


Rich


PS-for another 20 squid you could also buy my book "Experience Royal Dornoch," which includes a brief potted history along with my comments/understandings of the evolution of the course. ;)


rfg


Thank you!
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Rich Goodale

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 05:28:37 PM »
De rien.
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Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

James Boon

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2018, 06:24:10 PM »
Quote from: Rich Goodale on November 23, 2018, 02:54:08 PM
To simplify some of the guesses and misinformation above:


--The current 6th hole was built in 1946.  Prior to then the hole played from the current 6th tee to what is now the 11 green.
--the now 13th hole was in and out of the routing many times
--the 14th, 15th and 16th greens are pure OTM (as are the great 4th on the big course and the 4th and 17th and 18th on the old Struie.  What was the 17th on the Struie is now the 18th, and what was the great 18th is now a car park and the putting green....


Sic transit gloria struie.....


Evening Rich,


Just wondering where the "guesses and misinformation" came from as only Tom and I have provided answers and then you've confirmed them above?  8)  (though I have spotted a typo and corrected it but I hope I get a pass from Rihc on that? ;)  )


You mention the 13th being in and out of the routing many times? Can you expand on this please? Many thanks!


Also, it wasnt clear from what I've read in your Opinion Piece and John Macleod's book regarding what remains of the original course on the Struie? You mention the greens on 4 and 17 (and 18) on the Struie as being OTM? Does that mean these were the 15 and 16 on the old layout of the main course? There seem to have been plenty of tweeks to what is now the Struie which probably explains the OP?


Many thanks!


James
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 06:46:18 PM by James Boon »
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Rich Goodale

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2018, 09:30:44 PM »
Thanks, James B


I'll not say much more as I'm spending Thanksgiving weekend with my sister and don't have access to my sources, including Dr. John's book.  I will say that the 1921 redo of 1 was done by Ross but 2 was done by Sutherland who over-ruled him.  Also, to add to the existing Struie holes which were part of the big course, add #1 of the Struie (a simple but great hole, with a great green complex) as well as #17 Struie, not a great hole now, but probably better when the right hand bunkers were there..  The best NLE hole  of the old Struie holes was the old #2 which required an elevated drive from hill to the right of Struie #1, with a second shot across a burn to a flat green, very similar to the 1st at TOC.


Goodnight


Rich
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Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

James Boon

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2018, 05:08:47 AM »
Great stuff Rich, many thanks! Look forward to hearing further when you can.


Cheers,


James
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"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Thomas Dai

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Re: Original Dornoch Routing
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2018, 07:16:15 AM »
Guess there were no unusual flies around the area back in yee olde days to stop changes to courses or the development of new golfing areas!
Atb
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