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Ira Fishman

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Shapers and another Music Analogy Question
« on: November 20, 2018, 09:40:32 AM »
On Friday, we saw Marcus Roberts lead a Nonet (including the youngest Marsalis brother, Jason).  It was a deeply moving and entertaining performance.  There were three reed players and two trumpet players.  For several of the numbers, the reed players played off of each other while the trumpet players played off of each other.  In other words, with such a big ensemble, it was not the usual jazz combo dynamic of primarily different instruments interacting with each other.  It got me to thinking about whether when there are multiple shapers on a gca project, how they tend to interact among themselves.  Do they work different aspects of the course?  Do they "push" each other on the same green or bunker the way jazz groups do?  Do architects put together shaping teams based on them having similar or different strengths?


Thanks,


Ira

Peter Pallotta

Re: Shapers and another Music Analogy Question
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2018, 09:48:05 AM »
Beautiful - and the last line/question is a very interesting one.
The difference, perhaps, between the greatness of the music produced by an early Charlie Parker quintet (say with 'Anthropology') and the greatness of the music produced by a Miles Davis nonet (say with 'Boblicity', from Birth of the Cool).
Peter 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shapers and another Music Analogy Question
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2018, 10:23:19 AM »

Ira,


Well, these days most shapers are working on a contract basis for most contractors, since it is difficult to keep an employee team together for all but the busiest architects and contractors.


I have seen jobs with 3-4 talented shapers, and sensed that they were pushing each other in terms of results, or just currying favor with me, i.e., trying to be architect's pet shaper.  I recall having 4 good shapers on a job long ago, and I spent Memorial Day weekend just going around the loop where they were working towards finish to tweak all aspects.


Most jobs these days have two dozer shapers (I suspect) and it usually falls out the architect likes one better (or he is just better) and they get the greens shaping while the other gets tees, fw, etc.  That said, I don't mind a few shaping variations on projects.  Better than sameness if one shaper does all the greens.


Given the dearth of work, or at least top flight work opportunities these days, nothing gets my dander up more than a shaper who doesn't seem enthused to do great work.  "That's good enough" is a frustrating phrase to hear, which was heard far less often when projects had more shapers competing. 
I have half threatened to put a lazy shaper on "ladies tee" duty if they didn't get it in gear. (that is a real insult to a shaper, if you didn't figure that out)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shapers and another Music Analogy Question
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2018, 12:00:44 PM »
On Tom's jobs, either Tom or one of his associates is approving the features i.e., greens, bunkers, tees, big fwy shaping, etc.  So you at least get another set of eyes on everything.  Depending on how staffed up the job is, sometimes that's all the collaboration you'll get, or sometimes you're working on the same hole or green complex with someone else and you're chatting every couple hours about how it's coming together. 


A lot just depends on the type and flow of a project.  On a new job you'll see everyone once a day at lunch, but I could go a few days without anyone seeing what I'm working on depending what I'm doing, where everyone is on the property, if you're sharing a vehicle or if everyone is driving themselves, or if you're in little buggies and convening at the shop. 



But getting and giving feedback is similar to an art critique. The type of information to give and the questions to ask are the key. If I'm the one shaping and someone comes over to have a look or I ask their opinion, I'll give them a general overview of what I see as being important to that particular feature, the problems I've encountered, how I chose to solve them, and what other ideas I tried but already scrapped.  Then at least everyone in the conversation is on the same wavelength and able to objectively discuss new ideas.  Similarly, if someone calls me over to look at something, I want them to give me some baseline info so I'm not suggesting something they already tried.


At that point everyone is objectively discussing ideas, problems, and solutions, and that's really fun.  Everyone understands what needs to be built, but everyone has a different method of solving the problem.  Then you start to get funky ideas and meld differing aesthetics, and maybe you're trying a bit of one idea and mixing it with another, building and riffing off one another.  The 5th hole at Washington Golf turned out this way.  I think everyone who worked on that job (at least 4 people) spent time shaping the green and shaped some of the bunkers.  It was constantly being improved and edited up until the sod pallets were coming out to be laid.  Turned out really well because of that collaboration.


The key is to never take a critique personally. Some shapers look at their work as an extension of themselves, and it's hard to break through and have that collaborative culture when that's the case. There's a tendency to disregard a different idea or solution if you take things personally.  We all get attached to certain things, but the best results come when everyone has an open mind. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 04:20:22 PM by Blake Conant »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shapers and another Music Analogy Question
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2018, 08:24:55 AM »
Jeff and Blake,


Thank you for the fulsome and insightful responses. 


And Blake, not taking critiques personally is the key to success in every field.  I wish more people were willing to give and take constructive, candid feedback.


There is one definite way that the music analogy does not hold up.  Marcus Roberts is blind.  Certainly not a barrier to being a fantastic musician and band leader, but would be tough for a golf architect to assess the work of the shapers.


Happy Thanksgiving to all.




[size=78%]Ira[/size]

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shapers and another Music Analogy Question
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 11:15:17 AM »
The Marcus Roberts concert sounds right down my alley.
I've had the pleasure of spending a bit of time around golf course shapers.  In general, I found them to be a quiet and relaxed group.  Even the younger guys are real mellow during meal time.
Clearly there is a desire to please one another with their work, but for the outsider looking in, these shapers are an understated group.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Shapers and another Music Analogy Question
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 01:19:19 PM »
The Marcus Roberts concert sounds right down my alley.
I've had the pleasure of spending a bit of time around golf course shapers.  In general, I found them to be a quiet and relaxed group.  Even the younger guys are real mellow during meal time.
Clearly there is a desire to please one another with their work, but for the outsider looking in, these shapers are an understated group.


My crew might not be representative of the cohort as a whole.  Back in the good old days shapers were named Moose, and all the stories were about bailing them out of jail on Sunday so you could get back to work on Monday.  There had definitely been a changing demographic.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shapers and another Music Analogy Question
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2018, 07:19:29 PM »
"Hey Moose, Rocco!  Help the judge find his checkbook, will ya?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO8zb5DG_gM



Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shapers and another Music Analogy Question
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2018, 03:39:19 PM »
The Marcus Roberts concert sounds right down my alley.
I've had the pleasure of spending a bit of time around golf course shapers.  In general, I found them to be a quiet and relaxed group.  Even the younger guys are real mellow during meal time.
Clearly there is a desire to please one another with their work, but for the outsider looking in, these shapers are an understated group.


My crew might not be representative of the cohort as a whole.  Back in the good old days shapers were named Moose, and all the stories were about bailing them out of jail on Sunday so you could get back to work on Monday.  There had definitely been a changing demographic.
Is this the same Moose I had working with us for a while?  He had worked with PB and Pete and became ill with cancer while with us in Louisiana in 2000 time frame.  He died that year.  Moose was a dude...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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