[Jerry Kluger]

4 Months and counting - I expect some trash talking between now and then. 

[Lou_Duran]

I've booked the Victoria Hotel. Anyone else staying there?
F.

Jerry Kluger and I are both booked into the Victoria Thursday through Sunday night.

Thanks for the warning!


I may be getting some new sticks.  By game time my index should be around 12.6.  If my math is right that should put me around a 16 in the UK.


And whoever does the pairings, please make sure that Ulrich goes off well in front of me.  I still have scars from his admonishment a few years back over my pace of play.

[Mark Chaplin]

Lou that’s a classic US golfer trick, take your index add tax and service and play 4 strokes higher!

[Ben Stephens]

Lou that’s a classic US golfer trick, take your index add tax and service and play 4 strokes higher!

Lol good one Chappers! Calling Boony as he will have to give 12 shots away to Sweet Lou


I guess this is 'Trumpism' 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Remembering how Lou was struggling under the old rules, we must lend him a hand with the new Ready Golf rules. I would volunteer to play in his group and monitor pace of play. Also, with the way his index is trending, I believe we could play each other straight-up

cheers,

Ulrich

[Bryan Izatt]

The annual handicap lament emanating from Texas - an annual rite of spring.   


Time to get planning, I guess.  Does anybody travelling from afar have any before or after BUDA plans.  So close to North Berwick, maybe we could prevail on some of our fellow BUDA pests who are members there to arrange a game(s) there.  Anybody have any plans elsewhere before or after that I could join in?

[Jay Mickle]

I've booked the Victoria Hotel. Anyone else staying there?
F.

Kate and I are also booked there.

[Ulrich Mayring]

We're in Seahouses, St Cuthbert's House.

Ulrich

[Dean DiBerardino]

Mike Kain and myself are staying in Seahouses. Tom Quarton will be with us as well. Tom is not signed up for the Buda, but may be available as a sub if needed.


Dean

[Lou_Duran]

Lou that’s a classic US golfer trick, take your index add tax and service and play 4 strokes higher!

Lol good one Chappers! Calling Boony as he will have to give 12 shots away to Sweet Lou


I guess this is 'Trumpism' 

Not a trick, Mark.  Just an opening salvo to get the Europeans thinking properly.  The Buda is about camaraderie and sportsmanship.  After the handicap systems are aligned next year, perhaps the differential might come down to a stroke or two to account for the foreign travel and unfamiliar style of golf.


Please, Ben, leave that assassin ("Boony", talk about a misnomer) alone.  I was under the impression that he was otherwise occupied during the Buda.  If he is making an appearance, pump up my request by at least two strokes (I'll have to reach out to the President to see if I should hold out for more, and to check with Vlad on more aggressive strategies).


And Ulrich, as a past captain, I am exercising one of my put options.  You will be paired with an opponent of my choice (and I have the perfect one in mind), well behind my match.  I just hope that I am done before you make the turn so that I can be in your gallery the rest of the way.  Real drama is predicted.

[Ben Stephens]

Lou that’s a classic US golfer trick, take your index add tax and service and play 4 strokes higher!

Lol good one Chappers! Calling Boony as he will have to give 12 shots away to Sweet Lou


I guess this is 'Trumpism' 

Not a trick, Mark.  Just an opening salvo to get the Europeans thinking properly.  The Buda is about camaraderie and sportsmanship.  After the handicap systems are aligned next year, perhaps the differential might come down to a stroke or two to account for the foreign travel and unfamiliar style of golf.


Please, Ben, leave that assassin ("Boony", talk about a misnomer) alone.  I was under the impression that he was otherwise occupied during the Buda.  If he is making an appearance, pump up my request by at least two strokes (I'll have to reach out to the President to see if I should hold out for more, and to check with Vlad on more aggressive strategies).


And Ulrich, as a past captain, I am exercising one of my put options.  You will be paired with an opponent of my choice (and I have the perfect one in mind), well behind my match.  I just hope that I am done before you make the turn so that I can be in your gallery the rest of the way.  Real drama is predicted.

Lou,


My handicap is taking an ultimate Brexit direction it is now almost 7 having been off 5 for 20 odd years. I assume it will be even higher when the new handicap rules come into force in the UK. I look forward to an element of fairness handicap wise when it happens   


Look forward to see Trinity Forest on TV this week


Cheers
Ben

[Jerry Kluger]

Ben: In the US we post all scores including social rounds with friends while it is my understanding that in the UK you only counted scores from stroke play competitions - is that correct?

[Ben Stephens]

Ben: In the US we post all scores including social rounds with friends while it is my understanding that in the UK you only counted scores from stroke play competitions - is that correct?

Its my initial understanding that we are to have a similar system to yours to include social rounds as well. I am not 100 percent however this link will confirm it - https://www.englandgolf.org/article/world-handicap-system-whs/

https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Handicapping-FAQs-final.pdf

World Handicap System will be implemented in 2020/21

[Lou_Duran]

Ben,


All you need to do is keep your drives in the proper postal code and you will be fine.


Beyond what Jerry notes- posting all scores from rounds played with at least one other person to serve as a marker- our course and slope ratings seem to be higher than they should be, IMO.  A second factor might be that our club culture is more friendly- too many 3'-4' are kicked back/conceded.  ESC further puffs up the scores as someone with a 10' putt for bogey makes a more aggressive stroke because he doesn't have to worry about the come-backer (for those with double bogey being the maximum score).


After taking the lowest 10 scores out of the last 20 rounds, adjusting for both (rating and slope- when is the last time anyone has played a course with a slope of 113 or under?), and then take a further reduction of that average by 4%, our handicaps here have a bit of a vanity aspect in them.  Brexit or not, the few golfers whom I've known with competitive experience in both continents tell me that an American 5 is about a UK 7, a 10 might be a 13 or 14.


The one thing I find interesting about the proposed global system is the dynamic adjustment to the course rating based on the day's conditions and competition.  I hope that they can work out the details, but I just see it as another potential can of worms.

[Sean_A]

I have been talking to a lot of Brits about the new handicaping system to include friendly play.  I think there will be a silent rebellion on our hands...much like in the US...tons of scores are not reported, but nobody talks about it...its just expected.  The Brits can't get their heads around making up scores (for gimmies, pick us etc)...it goes against everything they have learned for attesting scores.  I think the issue comes down to comps....many UK club golfers who use their handicap play a ton of comps so their handicaps are fairly accurate.  In the US, few play anything like 30, let alone 50 comps (which isn't unusual). Of course, just as many don't play that many comps, but I think most don't need a handicap so much as they play mostly friendlies with mates etc and the odd away day comp.  These folks only put in minimum cards to maintain a valid handicap rather than actively keeping a cap...I am one of these sort. 

For what its worth, I hope the powers that be eventually settle on comp scores only for handicap purposes.  If folks don't play in comps they hardly need official handicaps. Its very easy to use an app to create a handicap for friendly purposes...a huge percentage of Americans do this exactly. We must remember, handicapping in the US is only really a big issue, for the most part, among private club members.  The vast majority of golfers are public players and the vast majority of them don't need an official handicap. Among my mates back in the US, I recall being one of the few who recorded any scores at a course. I think I recorded less than half the scores because there were too may gimmies and pick-ups in better ball golf. 

Ciao   

[Ulrich Mayring]

I would like to remind you that many courses world-wide have minimum handicap requirements for guest play. So even those not playing any comps need a handicap, unless all they ever play is their home course.

Ulrich

[Jon Wiggett]

Ulrich,


not in the UK. Some do but many/most do not. This handicap system is yet another s#@t decision that I suspect will result in a severe backlash once people really understand what it entails. Golf in the UK is mainly about enjoyable, social golf where the score really is not a big thing. This system makes every round a tournament game but one where the player is asked to lie about the result. It is so against the spirit of the game in the UK as have always I understood it and I am shocked that even the R&A could be so disconnected from the UK golf scene.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Jon,

I'm afraid you're sitting on too high of a horse here. Golf is a sport played world-wide and if there is going to be a world-wide handicap system, then saying "but we in the UK" is not going to cut it. You are not going to deprive a foreign golfer from teeing it up once in a lifetime on the Old Course, just because they're asking him to have a handicap of 24, which he has no opportunity to get at home.

Of course the UK could do a Brexit here and opt out of the worldwide handicap system, but I don't see the R&A relinquishing control of this important part of the game and rendering itself meaningless any time soon. And I don't see the English Golfing Union having the guts to openly oppose the R&A - although they certainly could.

Ulrich

[David McIntosh]

You are not going to deprive a foreign golfer from teeing it up once in a lifetime on the Old Course, just because they're asking him to have a handicap of 24, which he has no opportunity to get at home.

Ulrich,

Not sure I follow that comment - why would a foreign golfer not have an opportunity to get a (24 or any) handicap at home?

If a golfer doesn’t currently meet the handicap criteria to play a certain course (such as TOC), would they not still be in the same position when the new system comes in?

[Ulrich Mayring]

The suggestion in this thread was that handicaps should not be assigned to recreational golfers. This would deprive them of playing at any course - such as TOC - that requires a handicap for recreational play.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

The suggestion in this thread was that handicaps should not be assigned to recreational golfers. This would deprive them of playing at any course - such as TOC - that requires a handicap for recreational play.

Ulrich

If one wants to play courses which require a handicap, there is an obvious and tested system which has worked just fine for many decades.


With issues such as pace of play,  cost, participation, equipment etc, I am hard pressed to think of serious reasons why golf organisations, clubs and golfers should foot the bill for a new handicap system before properly tackling the above. Mass handicapping based on daily play has failed miserably in the US. I would venture to guess that the US has one of the lowest handicap participation rates among avid golfers in the major golf countries.


It is ironic that the USGA and R&A would spearhead a single handicap system when they should be reconsidering their backward ideas on rules bifurcation... especially as bifurcation already exists in all but name.


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

The suggestion in this thread was that handicaps should not be assigned to recreational golfers. This would deprive them of playing at any course - such as TOC - that requires a handicap for recreational play.

Ulrich

The idea that Joe Bloggs, who plays once or twice a year is going to return a card for handicap is an illusion. The attempt to make the handicapping system fit all play and player situation is folly. I put across the point from a UK angle because it is where I am from and the market I understand. I also do not presume I speak for all golfers in the world but would add that in the other countries I have worked and lived in in my life the golfers there would probably not want this system either.


As Sean says we already have a perfectly good system.

[Ben Stephens]

Personally I think the current CONGU system is the best handicap system to find the best golfers however can be open to more bandits than the USGA system.


However you are not allowed to put cards in if you are category 1 (0-5) but you can if you are 6 or above from yellow tees etc.


A friend of mine moved to Bermuda for a while and was playing a lot less plus his handicap was lower via the USGA system than CONGU. He was not playing as well as he was with a higher handicap


In my opinion they need to base the world handicap system more towards competitions rather than social play and eliminate 8 best scores out of 20 as it is too fluctuating. When I first played Lou in the early days of BUDA he was a very strong 7 handicap not he is a rather suspect 16 handicap. The same goes for Whitty who shot a glorious 74 gross at mighty Hollinwell (Mike - did you ever hand in this card for handicap purposes??


My handicap is going up due to the lack of playing the game (hardly any practice) even though I am driving the ball a lot straighter - I had one of my worst scoring rounds at Lindrick recently and I did not play that bad. I was a combination of too many duff chips and an off day with the putter plus bad bounces - it was one of those days.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Sean,

the fact that there aren't many handicap holders in the US is precisely not due to shortcomings of the USGA handicap system. There is simply no reason for these golfers to hold a handicap, because they don't play comps at home and they don't play abroad, where handicaps are required. The US is one of the few countries, where access is not regulated by handicap.

It is a valid thought that handicaps are meant for competitions, but this concept is undermined by the many clubs using handicaps for different purposes, i. e. for regulating access to their courses. Complain to these clubs for misuse of the handicap system, not to the golfers, who have no choice in the matter.

Jon,

I completely disagree with your "Joe Bloggs" statement that recreational golfers play only once or twice a year. The opposite is true for many golfers, who play regularly, but never/rarely in comps. I am a typical example for that. In my case for about 50 rounds of golf there is one comp round. Many years I haven't played any comps, but a lot of golf and much of it on courses that regulate access via handicap requirements.

The idea to base handicaps on competitions, but then require them for casual rounds defeats itself.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Ulrich


My angle is slightly different. I think what we have now is fine. That is each country decides their own handicap system. I fail to understand how a global system will improve what we have in GB&I. Hence my comment that there will be a silent rebellion with posting non comp scores.


I also think your argument is a bit pulled. In over 20 years of living in England I have been requested to produce a handicap certificate a total of three times: TOC, St Enodoc and Praia del Rey (which was a shocker to be honest).


Ciao

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