Ryder Cup course set up and US meltdown

[A.G._Crockett]

My goodness, there are a lot of people upset by the result of the Ryder Cup!
Fwiw, Mark Broadie's stats work called this a toss-up before it ever started, and that didn't factor in course familiarity or setup.

It seems to me that there is an element of nationalistic conceit in the assumption that the US must have lost because the players don't care as much or didn't bother to go to France in the middle of the run-up to the FedEx cup or don't like each other, or whatever else is on that list. 


The golf course and the setup of the golf course favored the Euros, and that's completely understandable.  The familiarity with the golf course favored the Euros as well, which is as it should be.  And some weird stuff happened within the US team; Mickelson playing in the foursomes on Friday, Reed and Speith not playing together, and so on.

But I'll say this again; it might be more productive in understanding what happens in the Ryder Cup to not think so much about what the Americans do NOT do, but rather what it is that the Euros do differently.  And to me, that's sort of simple; the Euros have managed to play with what appears to be an underdog, us-against-the-world mentality, even though there aren't really underdogs and haven't been for decades now.  They play, and especially putt, with what appears to be a "nothing to lose" approach that goes all the way back to Ballesteros and has been maintained all along ever since.

If all of the things that are being trumpeted here as being wrong with the American team were true, shouldn't at least some of them be showing up in the Presidents Cup, too?  So maybe it isn't about what's wrong with the US, but what's special and admirable about the Euros.

(I'll add this:  I'm really, REALLY over Phil Mickelson.  If there is anything wrong with the US team and process, it's that it comes across at least somewhat as a "good old boys" network.  That Mickelson was on the team at all after the year he had, and after what he did to Tom Watson is hard to fathom.  That the RC officially ended when he hit yet another iron into the water seemed fitting.  Rant over.)

[Kalen Braley]

I don't see the course setup as "unfair" in any way.  The US has the same option when it comes back this side of the pond to widen the playing corridors and let the bombers bomb away...


As for Phil, I'm don't know why anyone is surprised by anything he does at this point.  He speaks his mind and is certainly a FIGJAM of sorts, but he is who he is. Ironically, there is hardly a player on either side who wouldn't kill to have the career he had with all the tournies won (43/5) and lucrative sponsorship money.

[Jon Wiggett]

Kalen,


indeed the career would be desired by most but who would want to be the man he is???

[jeffwarne]

(I'll add this:  I'm really, REALLY over Phil Mickelson.  If there is anything wrong with the US team and process, it's that it comes across at least somewhat as a "good old boys" network.  That Mickelson was on the team at all after the year he had, and after what he did to Tom Watson is hard to fathom.  That the RC officially ended when he hit yet another iron into the water seemed fitting.  Rant over.)

This.
Exactly what I said in 2014 after he did what he did to Watson
and '16
and '18
losing begets losing
Bring in Larry Nelson(someone who deserves the honor) and never pick a wild card again with a sub .500 RC record-
and leave Mickelson OUTSIDE the ropes

[JHoulihan]

while Euros play for fun has tightened up the US side and loosened the Euros.

Really?  You on't get it, do you.  The Europeans (the Euro is a currency) aren't playing for fun.  For many of them the Ryder Cup means more than a Major.

And in some respect, that's kinda sad, no?


Kinda cool, too, but kinda sad at the same time.


I do blame Rick Shefchik, he shouldered the responsibility above and owns it and carries that burden for the rest of his life. That's gotta be tough, but he's tough guy....


Kyle's point about ordinal numbers is somewhat true, if a bit nerdy - and I can say that because I've shared a meal with Kyle, how many on here can say that? - but ultimately it comes down to this: match play between players of this caliber, on both teams, is pretty much a coin flip. They are all great golfers, they are all under varying degrees of pressure, they all hit shots that have similar but slightly different outcomes. And that should be celebrated, not ripped apart with second thoughts of "What if this guy had been chosen? What if that guy had been sat in that session?"


It's a team even unlike any other. Just enjoy it. Or don't. The choice is yours, not the players or the Captains...


I will add, the job of Captain is the most overanalyzed, overemphasized, job on the face of the earth. It matters not a lick who is captain, nor the choices he makes, What matters is how the golfers play.


Whether you choose to enjoy it or not is your choice, too.

George,


The quote about the captain is a bullseye. If the players score even close to what they do during an average tournament we are able to focus on them vs the NONPLAYING captain.


I do not know the specifics but listened to PGA tour radio and quoted statistics for foursome/alternate shot as Europe 76-81% fairways hit vs 45-51% for the US. I know you cannot break down a 3 day event with 24 players into a single sentence. You also CAN argue that with rough of that length that ego mattered more/driver off the tee than that of strategy/get the bal in the whole in fewer strokes than my opponent.


Justin

[Buck Wolter]

I think Phil taking the entire US PGA to task for how the Ryder Cup was being handled took some courage and the venue he used was necessary to get their attention --I think he was calling them out more than Watson. Can anyone really defend how Watson handled his Captaincy? He took Webb Simpson because he called him last minute and told him how much he wanted it (he didn't deserve the spot) and then left the entire team out of the process the rest of the week -- he had no connection to anyone on the team. Being a great golfer doesn't translate to a great captain.

 The debacle in Wales with the rainsuits was due to a captain essentially giving co-captaincy to his wife!

They lost this year but I don't think they lose at WS or BPB.

[jeffwarne]

I think Phil taking the entire US PGA to task for how the Ryder Cup was being handled took some courage

By that measure FIGJAM has courage in spades.....

[Thomas Dai]

From a European Team and sponsor perspective would the US please keep picking Messrs Woods and Mickelson. They bring the cash and crowds in, increase TV coverage and don’t contribute many/any points and in the case of the latter seem to cause disharmony as well.
And would the European Team please keep playing the match on tight courses with long rough. Not only does one team seem to know how to play such better than the other team but when the golf tourists come by afterwards there should be lots of nice new ProV1’s and the like available to find in the rough.
Tongue in cheek time obviously.

Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

I think Phil taking the entire US PGA to task for how the Ryder Cup was being handled took some courage and the venue he used was necessary to get their attention --I think he was calling them out more than Watson. Can anyone really defend how Watson handled his Captaincy? He took Webb Simpson because he called him last minute and told him how much he wanted it (he didn't deserve the spot) and then left the entire team out of the process the rest of the week -- he had no connection to anyone on the team. Being a great golfer doesn't translate to a great captain.

 The debacle in Wales with the rainsuits was due to a captain essentially giving co-captaincy to his wife!

They lost this year but I don't think they lose at WS or BPB.

Buck,


you could argue the opposite with it being more of I am blaming others to hide my own failings. If he had true team spirit he would have wanted it kept in house and solved where as his method just lessens the team spirit creating a me & them.


As for his comments about the set up in Paris. What it says to me is that despite his years of experience he is incapable of altering/adapting his game to suit the course. Maybe this is the main reason he is so far behind Woods in majors. Woods can hit irons of the tee when the course suggests it where as he cannot.


It is quite a saddening situation for me as the more Phil talks the less highly I regard him.

[Lou_Duran]

From a European Team and sponsor perspective would the US please keep picking Messrs Woods and Mickelson. They bring the cash and crowds in, increase TV coverage and don’t contribute many/any points and in the case of the latter seem to cause disharmony as well.
And would the European Team please keep playing the match on tight courses with long rough. Not only does one team seem to know how to play such better than the other team but when the golf tourists come by afterwards there should be lots of nice new ProV1’s and the like available to find in the rough.
Tongue in cheek time obviously.

Atb

David,

You should stick your tongue to your cheek (reflexively on the left side I would guess) more often.  You seem to be onto something.  Do enlighten me, how is it that I can never find any ProV1s in the rough over the pond, mine or others'?  At Lahinch, a colleague probably lost two dozen balls on a difficult day, how is it that we found but a small fraction and none that were worth more than a quarter?  Lamarckian evolution?

Jon,

If the world was populated by an overabundance of Phil Michelsons, it would be infinitely better off.  Unlike that of a number of participants in this DG who write incessantly about things that they know very little about, Phil's opinions typically have basis in personal experience and study.  His opinions may run counter at times to popular thought and what some consider out-of-bounds in PC company, but they do provide content for folks to rage against, and perhaps, think about.

As to citing Woods's record as a standard, all but Nicklaus fall short, nearly all by many country miles.  I had to look up FIGJAM and, ironically, it brought to mind the "Carnac" slam of Nicklaus by some of his younger competitors.  Not that anyone is jealous of PM ( ), but I also found it curious relative to some gossip I overheard at a recent gca.com event, mainly the younger guys railing against some of the veterans.  I guess it is human nature to "right-size" other people (an area that I particularly have much to work on).

I didn't take Phil's comments about the French course and its setup negatively.  He didn't indict the Europeans for exercising their rights to set up the course.  He just stated that it is not the type of course/set-up he enjoys playing and that he would be avoiding them in his limited future.  We voice the same on these pages every day.  Horses for courses (or vice-versa)?

[Kalen Braley]

Lou,


We can certainly agree that Phil is bashed far more than he deserves. Of course he has his downfalls like anyone else...but give me a guy who always speaks his mind anytime over the typical professional athlete who just regurgitates the same old tired cliches to the media.

[A.G._Crockett]

(I'll add this:  I'm really, REALLY over Phil Mickelson.  If there is anything wrong with the US team and process, it's that it comes across at least somewhat as a "good old boys" network.  That Mickelson was on the team at all after the year he had, and after what he did to Tom Watson is hard to fathom.  That the RC officially ended when he hit yet another iron into the water seemed fitting.  Rant over.)

This.
Exactly what I said in 2014 after he did what he did to Watson
and '16
and '18
losing begets losing
Bring in Larry Nelson(someone who deserves the honor) and never pick a wild card again with a sub .500 RC record-
and leave Mickelson OUTSIDE the ropes

And today, this:
http://www.golfwrx.com/530944/phil-mickelson-playing-courses-like-le-golf-national-is-a-waste-of-my-time/
Perhaps it would have been better on multiple levels if Mr. Mickelson had announced this earlier and declined a spot on the US team. 

What a nut job.

[Jon Wiggett]

Lou,


I too had to look up FIGJAM so you are not alone. As for the rest of your comments despite my high regard of your opinion I have to say I find you to be way off the mark when it comes to PM. Yes, he may make comment about a set up not suiting him and not enjoying playing a course because of it but the great players have always adjusted their games to give themselves the best chance of winning. Phil however does not seem capable of this though if it is any comfort to you I would say Rory is exactly the same. I stand by my comparison to Woods in that if PM was more adaptable in his game plan he would be much closer to Woods' record.

[Jim Nugent]

Lou,


I too had to look up FIGJAM so you are not alone. As for the rest of your comments despite my high regard of your opinion I have to say I find you to be way off the mark when it comes to PM. Yes, he may make comment about a set up not suiting him and not enjoying playing a course because of it but the great players have always adjusted their games to give themselves the best chance of winning. Phil however does not seem capable of this though if it is any comfort to you I would say Rory is exactly the same. I stand by my comparison to Woods in that if PM was more adaptable in his game plan he would be much closer to Woods' record.

I think all pro's believe the FIG part, even if they don't say the JAM part out loud.   

Phil has won on a wide variety of courses, from links to parkland to desert to ocean cliffs.  He won at Pebble, Muirfield, Sawgrass, Castle Stuart, ANGC and dozens of other courses worldwide.  He won on courses by Mackenzie, Old Tom, Tillie, Donald Ross and Pete Dye.  You gotta have a pretty adaptable game to win on so many varied layouts, for over 20 years, against the world's best players.   

Lee Trevino at felt stymied at ANGC; Phil felt the same at the Albatros course.  Furyk and he could have learned that before the Cup, though even then he probably wouldn't have faced the ultra narrow fairways set up for the RC.   

[Lou_Duran]

Jim Nugent,

One's disposition toward talented people who are not shy about demonstrating their strengths is often a function of which side they happen to swing from.  This, of course, is more true of folks we only know by reputation.

I don't know how much better Phil could have done if his game was more "adaptable".  I agree with you that he has shown an ability to play many different courses successfully, though I don't think he has ever learned to tame his driver sufficiently.  Perhaps if he wasn't such a creative and risky shot-maker he may have won more.  Then, again, how many guys would have attempted the iron shot at Augusta National's #13 between the trees to help him win the Masters?  My take is that he plays to his strengths and personality.  Next to Tiger Woods- IMO, the greatest player ever- and Nicklaus, has there a better player in the modern era?

As to Trevino, I think his problem had less to do with his game not being suited to ANGC than to the culture of the club and a very large, heavy chip he carried on his shoulder.  In private, the Merry Mex was not so merry and he faced more than his share of discrimination.

I actually had a nice talk with Lee about a month ago- and no, were are not friends, but he was playing regularly with a common acquaintance- and he seemed to be in a very good place.  His 20something son has him eating healthy (staying away from carbs) and working out, and not only has he lost a lot of weight, his knees and other joints aren't hurting.  I can only surmise that in his current frame of mind, if he was in his prime today, he would win the Masters.  The man can still hit unbelievable shots.  And he seemed genuinely happy.   

[Kalen Braley]

I will also add this about Phil.


I think in context, what he's really saying is the current state of his game is not suited for the more narrow setups.  But no doubt he has the skills, as his 6 second place finishes in the US Open, (most of them on narrow setups with brutal rough), would suggest.  But that was a much younger Phil, before all the aches and pains and everything else he's had to deal with physically in the last 4-5 years.

[Pat Burke]

I had what I consider, the good fortune to deal with Phil closely a few times. 


We did not agree on many things tour related, and I’d argue he looks at the tour through his own eyes and what he feels is best for top players.  Saying that, we would debate, heck, we’d argue about while playing rounds at a local course.


No matter the debate, he was always ok with my disagreeing, and never seemed to mind our battles.


When I was coming back after a 2+ year wrist injury,mand I hadn’t seen him in 3-4 years, he was pretty active trying to pulls some strings with Titleist to help me out with equipment, when I was struggling with the new stuff mightily.


He didn’t have to do anything, but too, the time to call and get someone to help find equipment answers I was struggling to find.


I wouldn’t call us friends, more friendly.  But I’d do know he treated me really well, and  there wasn’t anything in it for him.

[Jeff Schley]

I had what I consider, the good fortune to deal with Phil closely a few times. 


We did not agree on many things tour related, and I’d argue he looks at the tour through his own eyes and what he feels is best for top players.  Saying that, we would debate, heck, we’d argue about while playing rounds at a local course.


No matter the debate, he was always ok with my disagreeing, and never seemed to mind our battles.


When I was coming back after a 2+ year wrist injury,mand I hadn’t seen him in 3-4 years, he was pretty active trying to pulls some strings with Titleist to help me out with equipment, when I was struggling with the new stuff mightily.


He didn’t have to do anything, but too, the time to call and get someone to help find equipment answers I was struggling to find.


I wouldn’t call us friends, more friendly.  But I’d do know he treated me really well, and  there wasn’t anything in it for him.

Pat,

Great story and speaks to someone's character.  In another life, I recruited college football players and I would always ask people at the school who couldn't help him directly, what they thought of John Doe?  Janitors, front office staff, librarians etc.  You would be amazed what you hear in comparison to the Head Coach or AD. 

So in Phil's case, I think this applies in that how does one treat someone else who can't reciprocate?  They are helping out of the goodness of their hearts and that speaks volumes.  Hope to connect to hear the story someday.

God bless

[Jon Wiggett]

I had what I consider, the good fortune to deal with Phil closely a few times. 


We did not agree on many things tour related, and I’d argue he looks at the tour through his own eyes and what he feels is best for top players.  Saying that, we would debate, heck, we’d argue about while playing rounds at a local course.


No matter the debate, he was always ok with my disagreeing, and never seemed to mind our battles.


When I was coming back after a 2+ year wrist injury,mand I hadn’t seen him in 3-4 years, he was pretty active trying to pulls some strings with Titleist to help me out with equipment, when I was struggling with the new stuff mightily.


He didn’t have to do anything, but too, the time to call and get someone to help find equipment answers I was struggling to find.


I wouldn’t call us friends, more friendly.  But I’d do know he treated me really well, and  there wasn’t anything in it for him.

Pat,


nice to hear a different angle. Despite the tendency to simply the personality of people we don't know it shows how complex their character is in reality.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I’ve just recalled a thought I had about a year ago …one a year – that’s all I’m good for.

 The difference between the attitude of US and UK players is best seen in Nick Faldo.He has an excellent RC record. He (still?) holds the record for most matches played for Europe 46, most points won 25, Most singles won 6=, etc etc.

 All the while wasn’t concerned about endearing himself to his peers, his Captains or his successors as Captains. One of his teammates said later that he’d have had as good a record as Faldo “If I’d insisted on picking my partners the way he did.” Another famous quote “Playing with Faldo is like playing by yourself, just much slower”. i.e. he wasn’t a ‘team’ player.

 As a player his career focus was every bit as intense as Eldrick’s, but one of them took the Ryder Cup seriously (at a time when Europe’s position was not secure) and the other, though he always says the right things, like his teammates their actions show the contrary. Yep for the Yanks it’s just an exhibition.

[V_Halyard]

As a proud 'Yank, it was tough to watch. But, I admittedly found Bjorn's use of home field advantage tactically and strategically brilliant. Nobody likes to see your team get smoked but if you read "the Art of War" or play chess, you could see this coming for months.

US Team voluntary ignorance and willful unfamiliarity with the track (Battlefield)?
  - Check... C'mon, even AJGA and high school teams scout courses, especially for major contests
Narrow Choke Point Fairways?
  - Will make American players crazy
Gnarly Rough Squeezing the Choke Points?
  - Will make American players crazier
Eccentric course?
  - Will agitate American fans on social media, which will percolate across the players' social feeds
   and make American players twitchy. "Damn, my 'gram is blowing up... Yours too?"
Stadium Seating for Enthusiastic Euro Fans?
  - Will make American players lose their minds. They hear "Olé... etc" every night while trying to go to sleep.
    It resurfaces in their nightmares, and greets them for (petite dejuner, bangers and mash, Egg McMuffins)
    outside the hotel every morning.
Olé chant?
  - See above
"U-S-A!, U-S-A!" Chant?
   - That chant is so lame I'm embarrassed I typed it phonetically. Apologies. I actually put that into the Euro quiver
     as an EU WMD. I think Bjorn had roving "Chant Death Squads" to chant "U-S-A" after every US blunder.
     I despise it so much that I'm moving it into the "Mashed Potatoes" column.

Home field advantage is leveraged in every sport. Clay Vs. Grass tennis courts. The Boston Red Sox pitch to favor the Green Monster. Lewis Hamilton has his best drives on... ok, almost every track this year, but you get where I'm going.
One can bemoan the venue and tactics but it all worked like a charm for Bjorn and his team. It looked as if they were sharing pints at a TopGolf Friday fish fry. "Free Refills!". The US team looked like they were forced to go to Mass on Super Bowl Sunday...
So, I'm not complaining about the outcome or laying blame but certainly not surprised.

So, how do you fix it?....
No don't misunderstand, I'm not proposing a solution here, I'm instigating. Carry On.

[Kalen Braley]

Vhal,


The way you fix it, is by not "fixing" it.  Given its just an exhibition, and it doesn't actually matter, you "fix it" by USA players adapting the NBA Slam Dunk competition approach.


The SD competition, was THE most popular event of All-Star weekend in the 80s.  Anybody who was anybody wanted in and it was the best of the best, going toe to toe. As one of the "not to miss" events of the year in the basketball world it was must see TV.  But then many of the top players stopped doing it and before you knew it, the event was as an also-ran with B and C level guys. Sure there were a few interesting one-offs like when Vince Carter won it in 2000, but ever since the 80s glory days, its never been the same.


If the top US players really don't care, then they should not bother playing in the RC. Sure the Euros will keep on winning, but then eventually they won't care because it'll be empty victories over B and C players year in and year out. Cause at the end of the day, the Euros need this event...so let them have it! 

[V_Halyard]

Vhal,


The way you fix it, is by not "fixing" it.  Given its just an exhibition, and it doesn't actually matter, you "fix it" by USA players adapting the NBA Slam Dunk competition approach.


The SD competition, was THE most popular event of All-Star weekend in the 80s.  Anybody who was anybody wanted in and it was the best of the best, going toe to toe. As one of the "not to miss" events of the year in the basketball world it was must see TV.  But then many of the top players stopped doing it and before you knew it, the event was as an also-ran with B and C level guys. Sure there were a few interesting one-offs like when Vince Carter won it in 2000, but ever since the 80s glory days, its never been the same.


If the top US players really don't care, then they should not bother playing in the RC. Sure the Euros will keep on winning, but then eventually they won't care because it'll be empty victories over B and C players year in and year out. Cause at the end of the day, the Euros need this event...so let them have it! 

Love this. Kalen, I think you hit it on the head with the Slam Dunk contest!
DATELINE: HAVEN WISCONSIN - WHISTLING STRAITS
Friday:
Picture this, Opening ceremonies start on the first tee with some form, any form of traditional team play. The afternoon is a Long Drive Competition out into Lake Michigan. Raytheon sponsors an unveiling of defense level tech that delivers real-time, live shot tracer technology for the enjoyment of both people in the stands and at home!
Spectator notes:
Shouting "Dilly Dilly" is fine if immediately followed by "Brought to you by Bud Lite."
- Yelling "Olé" or "Get in the Hole" Gets you ejected.
- Yell "Mashed Potatoes", You get tased.
Afternoon Session? We Four Ball to say we did it and take some photos of it so the historical pictures have some connection to the past.
Wraps up with a Fish Fry. Free beer specifically, Miller Lite
(It's Wisconsin, it's what we do - plus this is how Miller Lite gets some impressions since the "Dilly Dilly" rights were sold to Bud Light.
Saturday:
Some more Ryder Cup stuff happens supported with Free Beer powered by New Glarus Spotted Cow, a local favorite not available outside of the State of Wisconsin. There are places for kids to have their picture taken with The Spotted Cow. There are no udders on the cow costume and the 'cow' will have passed a thorough background check.
Sunday:
Singles with a caveat. There are no ties. All ties are sent to a holographic (VR at home) simulator next to the 18th grandstands.
(Sponsored by TopGolf in Partnership with The Marvel Universe - Powered by Disney Imagineering)
All of this is angled scenically facing Lake Michigan with what?... Free Beer.
Wisconsin is my native state so I can assure you we can do the free beer better than most... beer than most...


KB, you're a genius! The ratings will be massive. #GrowTheGame 
Or,... the US side can decide if the RC really matters!
Just presenting some options.  You're all welcome.

[Mark Pearce]

He (still?) holds the record for most matches played for Europe 46, most points won 25, Most singles won 6=, etc etc.

I don't know what you were doing the last weekend of September but you can't have been watching the golf on the Sunday.  If you had been it would have been impossible to miss mention of the fact that Sergio's win took him past Faldo's record for points won.

[Brian Walshe]

As an independent in the Ryder Cup discussion, can someone help me understand why the setup is seen as so anti-USA?  If someone told me there was a tournament with narrow fairways and long rough I'd automatically think of the traditional US Open setups rather than the average Euro Tour stop.  Bethpage Black anyone? I understand that the current US Tour setup is all about scoring and those setups have bred a collection of bomb and gouge artists but as most of the Euro's play on the US Tour why is it that only the guys born in the US can't hit a fairway?  Are we saying that I should load up on Euros to win the next 3 or 4 US Opens?