Ryder Cup course set up and US meltdown

[jeffwarne]

Fwiw, as much as a love architecture, and mostly lurk and learn on this site, I believe professional golf, especially the Ryder cup does not reflect, or at times need quality architecture.


The Ryder Cup is about two thing, winning that cup and making as much money as possible.  Crass, I know, but this event is so important to the Euro Tour finances, that winning helps.  To that end, it was brilliant to set the course up the way they did.  The PGA of America (not the tour) laughs all the way to the bank too.


In a vacuum, the captains picks were pretty solid.  For this course, obviously not.
Kisner, Schieffele, even Bradley we’re lokely better “horses for courses” picks.


I’ve said it since I played. Want to win the cup, play the TPC Vegas or something of the like.  It’s what our tour play, and where many excel.  Bjorn did a better job, and the Euros played great!

Lots of truth here.
It was well known how the Euro tour would set up the course.
Our Captains picks were defendable -but wrong given the course and predicted setup.
I just got home-I thought the event was incredible-and the outcome sadly predictable in the Task force everybody has input era.
Given our results the last 25 years, would picking Larry Nelson really be a bad risk?
Maybe we need Captains that ARENT buds with the players'who dont bust up winning combinations just cuz they dont bromance together in the Bahamas...

[Tim Leahy]

The USA won the opening 4 bestball 3-1 on the same setup. The USA didnt start losing until the weather got really cold and the ski caps came out. PGA pros follow the the sun and dont fair well in bad conditions.

[Tom Birkert]

Few reasons for this...


Poor Captain's picks. I think it must be harder for a contemporary of Phil to leave him off the team than it would have been for someone who is removed from the Tour.


Course set up. This ties into to the point above. Everyone knew what it would be like. It wasn't a secret. Yet Furyk picked Phil, who is pretty much the worst driver on tour.


Poor strategy. To compound the two above points, Furyk then sent Phil out in foursomes. Foursomes? Phil? On that course? No, just no. That was always going to be a disaster.


Lack of preparation. Only Thomas came over for the French Open, so he knew what to expect. Also, the lack of preparation due to the Tour Championship, which meant loads of the US players had zero adjustment time, few practice rounds, jet lag issues. I know that a lot of the Euro players were also at East Lake, but it is always easier coming back home, plus they were really fired up to win due to...


Arrogance. "The Greatest Team Ever". Sorry, that was just wrong. You can start talking about great teams once they have won and dominated. There was a common school of thought that while the US team was great on the PGA Tour courses, they would struggle on this set up. I can imagine this got the back up of a lot of the European players - due in no small part to Alan Shipnuck, as referenced by Rory and Poulter post event. Never poke the underdog bear..


It's the captain's prerogative to set up the course as they see fit. Two years ago there was light rough, lightning fast greens and it played like an "easy" typical tour venue which favoured the US team. No problem with that. I am sure whoever is captain in two years will do the same at Whistling Straits and good for them. It will be up to the European team to adapt - and maybe the captain will pick long but inaccurate hitters to mitigate some of this course advantage.


You can't manufacture chemistry. Creating these pods of 4 players sounds like a good idea until the players within the pods play poorly, and then you are stuck because you don't want to choose partners from outside the pods. This ties into egos (hello Patrick Reed, nice 85 on Saturday morning!) and the Europeans do have a sense of cameraderie, maybe aren't as corporate, and are willing to poke fun at each other and play with whoever the captain thinks is best suited. Rather than 3 pods of 4, there is one team of 12, all working towards the same goal.


I was surprised that it was as lopsided as it was ,but I was not surprised at the result. The top European players were always more likely to find fairways, and on this course it was imperative. It was like a 2000s era US Open set up, and the likes of Stenson, Molinari, Fleetwood and Rose all shine on the skills that demands.

[Sean_A]

For me, watching golf is entertainment.  I can understand that if the pros are given too much space it becomes a birdie fest...not entertaining.  Organizers are almost always going to have to set-up courses in a penal manner to make pros play a given course rather than merely exporting their game.  That said, if the penal set-up is taken too far, as it was last week, much of the entertainment is missing because there are so few chances for heroic recovery. Jeepers, some of the rough these guys found when maybe 20 yards away from the dead centre of the fairway was absolutely stupid.  I understand the business of home team set-up, but there is a bigger picture of entertainment and interest which should be considered.  For instance, after seeing that mess on tv, who wants to play that course purely for the interest of the course itself?  I wouldn't dream of spending money to play there...it looks a total nightmare. 

Ciao

[Sam Andrews]

For me, watching golf is entertainment.  I can understand that if the pros are given too much space it becomes a birdie fest...not entertaining.  Organizers are almost always going to have to set-up courses in a penal manner to make pros play a given course rather than merely exporting their game.  That said, if the penal set-up is taken too far, as it was last week, much of the entertainment is missing because there are so few chances for heroic recovery. Jeepers, some of the rough these guys found when maybe 20 yards away from the dead centre of the fairway was absolutely stupid.  I understand the business of home team set-up, but there is a bigger picture of entertainment and interest which should be considered.  For instance, after seeing that mess on tv, who wants to play that course purely for the interest of the course itself?  I wouldn't dream of spending money to play there...it looks a total nightmare. 

Ciao

Sean,
Would you want to play any modern Ryder Cup course? I’ve played Belfrey and Celtic Manor and hated both with a passion.
Sam

[Alan Ritchie]

My view on this was that Europe just played better golf. The course set was was very penal but it is the same for both teams and the best players in the world should be able to hit a straight long iron off the tee or at least alter their normal game to some extent.


None the less, it is always compelling viewing.


And I’ve never played there, but doesn’t sawgrass have narrow fairways, lots of water and some thick rough?

[Sean_A]

For me, watching golf is entertainment.  I can understand that if the pros are given too much space it becomes a birdie fest...not entertaining.  Organizers are almost always going to have to set-up courses in a penal manner to make pros play a given course rather than merely exporting their game.  That said, if the penal set-up is taken too far, as it was last week, much of the entertainment is missing because there are so few chances for heroic recovery. Jeepers, some of the rough these guys found when maybe 20 yards away from the dead centre of the fairway was absolutely stupid.  I understand the business of home team set-up, but there is a bigger picture of entertainment and interest which should be considered.  For instance, after seeing that mess on tv, who wants to play that course purely for the interest of the course itself?  I wouldn't dream of spending money to play there...it looks a total nightmare. 

Ciao

Sean,
Would you want to play any modern Ryder Cup course? I’ve played Belfrey and Celtic Manor and hated both with a passion.
Sam

I don't hate Belfry or Celtic Manor, but I don't like or admire the courses.  I certainly wouldn't pay a green fee to play either course.  I think archies have their backs against the wall trying to create a really good course which is interesting for the handicap player and watch the big boys play...all while trying to meet the demands the Ryder Cup logistics require. I think its an impossible job.  We can debate all day if a RC course really does require all that it is layed out, but at the end of the day the PGA runs the RC as it sees fit. To me, this Paris place does a better job of hosting the RC than the modern British/Irish counterparts, but I think it could be better still with a less penal set-up. I also think weather played a part because often times the British/Irish RC events at modern courses have struggled with rain. 

Ciao 

[Kalen Braley]

Perhaps this contributed to the "Meltdown" portion of the event..


https://www.yahoo.com/sports/dustin-johnson-brooks-koepka-paulina-140246698.html

[Mike Hendren]

In my lecture last week I opined that I'd rather drink a beer with Martin Luther than with John Calvin.  So, when looking at the Ryder Cup squads which players would you rather have a beer/pint with?   I gotta go with Fleetwood, Garcia, Hatton, McIlroy, Poulter, Rose and Stenson.  I'd likely let Rickie Fowler tag along but that's about it on the Yank squadron.  That's really all the explanation one needs for the rout, is it not?

Your list?

Bogey

[jeffwarne]

 So, when looking at the Ryder Cup squads which players would you rather have a beer/pint with?   I gotta go with Fleetwood, Garcia, Hatton, McIlroy, Poulter, Rose and Stenson.




Good call




 I'd likely let Rickie Fowler tag along but that's about it on the Yank squadron.


Can I have  a Captain's pick?

[Mike Hendren]

 So, when looking at the Ryder Cup squads which players would you rather have a beer/pint with?   I gotta go with Fleetwood, Garcia, Hatton, McIlroy, Poulter, Rose and Stenson.




Good call




 I'd likely let Rickie Fowler tag along but that's about it on the Yank squadron.


Can I have  a Captain's pick?

Sure.  Mine would be Lee Buck Trevino.

[Matthew Rose]

If the cold is such an issue, then why do wanna go to Minnesota and Wisconsin?


Maybe the US should be hosting in the south, with humidity and grainy bermuda grass.

[jeffwarne]

 So, when looking at the Ryder Cup squads which players would you rather have a beer/pint with?   I gotta go with Fleetwood, Garcia, Hatton, McIlroy, Poulter, Rose and Stenson.




Good call




 I'd likely let Rickie Fowler tag along but that's about it on the Yank squadron.


Can I have  a Captain's pick?

Sure.  Mine would be Lee Buck Trevino.

Tom Watson-right now-would've outplayed half our team on this course

[Mike Schott]

There were so many mistakes made by the US team. Poor pairings and poor club decisions. WTF was Furyk thinking in choosing Phil? He hasn't played well for most of the season.


But mostly, the US team played bad golf for the most part. How many strokes did they lose driving into deep rough? Put the damn ball in the fairway no matter what. These guys can hit long irons close to 300 yards.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

How about the PGA sending the high ranking PGATour pros to Italy in 2022 to play  the Italian Open course which will be the Ryder Cup course later in the year? Make this mandatory. No go. No Ryder Cup for you!Spending a week in Italy playing golf and having real Italian food and wine sounds good to me.

[Mark_Fine]

I surprisingly have mixed feelings about the golf course and the set up.  Being mostly a purist, l love a golf course where with a good caddie it is hard to lose a golf ball and where there is width and angles and options and variety and recovery shots and alternative lines of play,...   etc.  But maybe there is a case for “tournament courses” where you don’t need 8500 yards to see the pros hit more than a wedge into the greens and where “water” is prevalent and is a hazard (along with the severe rough) that puts fear into players who otherwise have NONE?  These same players weeks before took what some thought was a tough course like Aronimink and turned it into Drive, Chip and Putt.  Maybe there is a case for courses like we just witnessed that are designed and set up for the pros because that was entertaining and far from just a drive, chip and putt contest. 

[jeffwarne]

I surprisingly have mixed feelings about the golf course and the set up.  Being mostly a purist, l love a golf course where with a good caddie it is hard to lose a golf ball and where there is width and angles and options and variety and recovery shots and alternative lines of play,...   etc.  But maybe there is a case for “tournament courses” where you don’t need 8500 yards to see the pros hit more than a wedge into the greens and where “water” is prevalent and is a hazard (along with the severe rough) that puts fear into players who otherwise have NONE?  These same players weeks before took what some thought was a tough course like Aronimink and turned it into Drive, Chip and Putt.  Maybe there is a case for courses like we just witnessed that are designed and set up for the pros because that was entertaining and far from just a drive, chip and putt contest. 

Interesting-I felt the same way walking around at the Ryder Cup.
I guess I'm old enough where a tournament venue that actually tests today's players makes me feel as excited to get on the field as I would be against the Crimson Tide football team.


I guess we have a choice.
Bifurcate the equipment or the fields of play.

[Mark Pearce]

For me, watching golf is entertainment.  I can understand that if the pros are given too much space it becomes a birdie fest...not entertaining.  Organizers are almost always going to have to set-up courses in a penal manner to make pros play a given course rather than merely exporting their game.  That said, if the penal set-up is taken too far, as it was last week, much of the entertainment is missing because there are so few chances for heroic recovery. Jeepers, some of the rough these guys found when maybe 20 yards away from the dead centre of the fairway was absolutely stupid.  I understand the business of home team set-up, but there is a bigger picture of entertainment and interest which should be considered.  For instance, after seeing that mess on tv, who wants to play that course purely for the interest of the course itself?  I wouldn't dream of spending money to play there...it looks a total nightmare. 

Ciao

Did you see the birdie McIlroy and Poulter made playing foursomes on Friday?  One of the great recoveries of all time.  And the added bonus of some Poulter eye-bugging team-mate gee up, which is great entertainment.  Part of the problem was that the Americans made some really stupid decisions in the rough.  How many shots did they dump in water trying to carry it out of rough?  Get it out and make a great up and down.....

[Sam Krume]

 
That said, if the penal set-up is taken too far, as it was last week, much of the entertainment is missing because there are so few chances for heroic recovery. Jeepers, some of the rough these guys found when maybe 20 yards away from the dead centre of the fairway was absolutely stupid.
Sean,After following many a group on Sunday. Yes there was some nasty stuff out there BUT you had to miss by a fair bit to reach that stuff, and YES there were no trampled down areas of rough close to fairways, as it should be and YES you should be penalised by missing a drive that far. These guys are supposedly the best in the world, cant they hit straight??

[John Emerson]

I think that some team drama had something to do with the atrocious play. I think A couple guys might not have broke 80 on a couple rounds 😳.  Bottom line is USA played awful.  Couple bright spots but other than that it was a joke.

[Sean_A]

For me, watching golf is entertainment.  I can understand that if the pros are given too much space it becomes a birdie fest...not entertaining.  Organizers are almost always going to have to set-up courses in a penal manner to make pros play a given course rather than merely exporting their game.  That said, if the penal set-up is taken too far, as it was last week, much of the entertainment is missing because there are so few chances for heroic recovery. Jeepers, some of the rough these guys found when maybe 20 yards away from the dead centre of the fairway was absolutely stupid.  I understand the business of home team set-up, but there is a bigger picture of entertainment and interest which should be considered.  For instance, after seeing that mess on tv, who wants to play that course purely for the interest of the course itself?  I wouldn't dream of spending money to play there...it looks a total nightmare. 

Ciao

Did you see the birdie McIlroy and Poulter made playing foursomes on Friday?  One of the great recoveries of all time.  And the added bonus of some Poulter eye-bugging team-mate gee up, which is great entertainment.  Part of the problem was that the Americans made some really stupid decisions in the rough.  How many shots did they dump in water trying to carry it out of rough?  Get it out and make a great up and down.....

I am sure mistakes were made, but I will leave the decision-making to the best pros in the world.  That in no way makes 8-12 inch rough within spitting distance of fairways an entertaining way to set up a course.  But then, I come from the school of the recovery shot is the most exciting shot in golf.  That said, it can be difficult to get the balance between offering a difficult recovery VS boring entertainment. I will take the creative shots around TOC all day VS the Paris RC set-up...even if they are the extremes of the argument.  When I watch golf on tv (which is very rare these days mostly because the courses offer me little interest) I am hoping to watch creative play over a creative course. My hopes certainly weren't fulfilled last week.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Make the Club Professional Championship winner the Ryder Cup captain.

[jeffwarne]

Make the Club Professional Championship winner the Ryder Cup captain.

Or Larry Nelson.


No one can tell me that having a Captain that's buds with players and their wives is an advantage.
#Task Force Sux

[mike_malone]

 The Ryder Cup is a modest weekend contest between pros. It accomplished nothing. It’s just for fun.


The evolution into a patriotic battle has ruined it. The fact that the Americans play for their country while Euros play for fun has tightened up the US side and loosened the Euros.




Is Mr. Ryder rolling over in his grave that the contest for his trophy has become such a sham?


Stop it now !

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,


Perhaps the patriotic thing was extra ramped this year given the US isn't exactly doing itself any favors with foreign relations since the last one...


I'm inclined to think its just like anything else... If you like it, get dressed up, buy some beer and snacks, and tune in.  If its not your cup of tea, its no different than most other sporting events that happen every day that you don't give a second thought to...