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Scott Weersing

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Chambers Bay reopening on April 1, 2019
« on: September 24, 2018, 02:55:42 PM »



to replace the remaining 15 greens to Poa annua putting greens


https://www.chambersbaygolf.com/changing-the-face/


How much revenue would they stand to lose between October and March?
Why not just close a couple of greens over time?


I played the course back in April and it is still lots of fun. Yes, the new greens on 7, 10 and 13 were better than the others.


I would guess that they would rather close the course than have a less than great experience with temp greens.
 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 10:44:02 AM by Scott Weersing »

Dan Gallaway

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2018, 03:25:19 PM »
Not much if any room for temporary greens on the par 3s.  Can't think of any obvious solutions to those without shutting down the course.  While the temporaries on 7, 10, 13 were fine, they got lots of complaints from people trying to get their "bucket list" experience.

Scott Weersing

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2018, 03:51:47 PM »
One more question: Since they are closed for six months, should they also add cart paths?


If the goal is to increase revenue and play, then adding cart paths would make this "bucket list" course more playable.


It all comes down to, how likely are you to recommend this course to a golfing buddy? I would suspect that they were not getting very many recommendations.


Of course, I don't think they should add cart paths because the fescue would not hold up. But you could have cart path only golf too.

Matthew Essig

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2018, 04:13:21 PM »
No, they aren't going to add cart paths. They aren't doing this for revenue or increase play, it is to make the experience better. In their own words: "consensus had been reached that such a project would not only ensure better putting surfaces for future Championships, but would improve the every-day experience for our customers." Part of the experience is walking, so I don't see that changing at all.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2018, 04:48:50 PM »
I think closing for the six slowest months probably makes the most sense, especially as a county-owned facility. They can focus on the greens and not worry about other things at the same time.
Doing a patchwork quilt manner does preserve some level of revenue, but there are tradeoffs in terms of working around golfers etc.
I say do it once and do it right and move forward.

I played CB once (about a year before the US Open) and haven't returned. There are cool holes and there is good scenery, but the condition for the price paid (and that pace of play is slow) hasn't left me wanting to go out of the way to get there on Seattle work trips.



Jon Wiggett

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2018, 02:37:23 AM »

Yet another 'fescue' project fails because millions was thrown at a project by people who were not willing to do the 'ONE' thing they really needed to do. Namely, hire someone who understands what fescue is all about.


On another note (or maybe the same) why do they need to close for six months to create poa greens? My understanding is that most US courses just transition from what ever the chosen grass is to poa whether they want to or not.


Is this a case of having too much money and just simply being desperate to off load some????? ;D

Scott Weersing

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2018, 07:51:59 AM »

Yet another 'fescue' project fails because millions was thrown at a project by people who were not willing to do the 'ONE' thing they really needed to do. Namely, hire someone who understands what fescue is all about.


On another note (or maybe the same) why do they need to close for six months to create poa greens? My understanding is that most US courses just transition from what ever the chosen grass is to poa whether they want to or not.



Is this a case of having too much money and just simply being desperate to off load some? ??? ? ;D


I was wondering the same thing as they have already grown the grass for all the greens and they are going to sod the greens, not grow them. How long would it take to sod 15 greens? A couple of weeks. Then 5 months for them to grow in and remove the seams. I guess the poa is not going to grow much in the winter months.
[/size]
[/size]On the other hand, all the fescue fairways will be in great shape after no one plays them for 6 months.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2018, 10:30:44 AM »

Yet another 'fescue' project fails because millions was thrown at a project by people who were not willing to do the 'ONE' thing they really needed to do. Namely, hire someone who understands what fescue is all about.





Jon,
  Their Director of Agronomy, Eric Johnson, worked at Bandon Dunes & Old Mac from 2003-20012 as Superintendent. I think it's safe to say he has fescue knowledge.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2018, 12:52:39 PM »

Yet another 'fescue' project fails because millions was thrown at a project by people who were not willing to do the 'ONE' thing they really needed to do. Namely, hire someone who understands what fescue is all about.


On another note (or maybe the same) why do they need to close for six months to create poa greens? My understanding is that most US courses just transition from what ever the chosen grass is to poa whether they want to or not.



Is this a case of having too much money and just simply being desperate to off load some? ??? ? ;D


I was wondering the same thing as they have already grown the grass for all the greens and they are going to sod the greens, not grow them. How long would it take to sod 15 greens? A couple of weeks. Then 5 months for them to grow in and remove the seams. I guess the poa is not going to grow much in the winter months.

On the other hand, all the fescue fairways will be in great shape after no one plays them for 6 months.



I was wondering more about just letting them transition which with a bit of encouragement should not take too long.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2018, 12:57:31 PM »

Yet another 'fescue' project fails because millions was thrown at a project by people who were not willing to do the 'ONE' thing they really needed to do. Namely, hire someone who understands what fescue is all about.





Jon,
  Their Director of Agronomy, Eric Johnson, worked at Bandon Dunes & Old Mac from 2003-20012 as Superintendent. I think it's safe to say he has fescue knowledge.



Anthony,


my mistake for not being clear enough. I was meaning appointing someone with a 'successful' track record of working with 'fescue' based swards.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2018, 02:35:55 PM »

Yet another 'fescue' project fails because millions was thrown at a project by people who were not willing to do the 'ONE' thing they really needed to do. Namely, hire someone who understands what fescue is all about.





Jon,
  Their Director of Agronomy, Eric Johnson, worked at Bandon Dunes & Old Mac from 2003-20012 as Superintendent. I think it's safe to say he has fescue knowledge.



Anthony,


my mistake for not being clear enough. I was meaning appointing someone with a 'successful' track record of working with 'fescue' based swards.





Ouch. I guess we all have our opinions.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2018, 10:57:35 PM »
With all due respect, I haven't read any of the previous responses in this thread (yet) ...


I have been doing a lot of work in the Seattle/Puget Sound area over the past decade. Ridgetop Golf, the experienced, extremely competent contractor I've worked with on many projects over that period of time, is assisting with the re-grassing work at Chambers. I know Eric Johnson, Josh Lewis, Jay Blasi et al., along with most of the most knowledgeable, successful superintendents in the Pacific Northwest ...


This being said, I think this is the best news out of Chambers Bay ever. Climate, environment, circumstances considered, Poa greens are what belong at C.B. There are so many courses in and around the Puget Sound with awesome Poa greens dictated by nature and managed by intelligent people. Good news.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 10:59:06 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

John Kirk

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2018, 11:24:36 PM »
It is great news.

To the best of my knowledge, there have been zero new golf courses west of the Cascade mountains that have maintained pure stands of either bent or fescue greens without a significant infestation of Poa annua within ten years.  No matter how experienced the course staff is, Poa annua is the dominant grass in Oregon and Washington.  It especially dominates during the cool, damp winter months.  Furthermore, as has been said dozens of times, the Poa evolves into a fine putting surface within 5-10 years, and only gets better with time.

Chambers Bay will lose a bit of its bounce, but overall the course will be much better.  It's demoralizing to travel to play a former U.S. Open course to find the greens in poor condition.  Smooth and fast greens are fun, period.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2018, 02:29:57 AM »

Yet another 'fescue' project fails because millions was thrown at a project by people who were not willing to do the 'ONE' thing they really needed to do. Namely, hire someone who understands what fescue is all about.





Jon,
  Their Director of Agronomy, Eric Johnson, worked at Bandon Dunes & Old Mac from 2003-20012 as Superintendent. I think it's safe to say he has fescue knowledge.



Anthony,


my mistake for not being clear enough. I was meaning appointing someone with a 'successful' track record of working with 'fescue' based swards.





Ouch. I guess we all have our opinions.



Anthony,


there is a big difference between having experience of fescue and successfully maintaining a fescue based sward. Just having experience of fescue does not make you qualified in its maintenance. I do not know Eric Johnson and I am sure he has a good pedigree but my understanding is that Bandon is abandoning trying to maintain a fescue sward letting poa take over.



I think John Kirk's post shows where the problem lies in that he states 'To the best of my knowledge, there have been zero new golf courses west of the Cascade mountains that have maintained pure stands of either bent or fescue greens'  here lies the crux of the problem. It is just about impossible to maintain a 'pure fescue' green's sward (I have seen this only twice) but fortunately a true 'links sward' is not pure fescue but a mix of fescue, agrostis (browntop (colonial?)) and poa.

Anyone trying to produce a pure fescue sward outside of a semi-arid climate setting themselves up to fail.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 02:32:12 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2018, 06:17:39 AM »

Yet another 'fescue' project fails because millions was thrown at a project by people who were not willing to do the 'ONE' thing they really needed to do. Namely, hire someone who understands what fescue is all about.





Jon,
  Their Director of Agronomy, Eric Johnson, worked at Bandon Dunes & Old Mac from 2003-20012 as Superintendent. I think it's safe to say he has fescue knowledge.



Anthony,


my mistake for not being clear enough. I was meaning appointing someone with a 'successful' track record of working with 'fescue' based swards.





Ouch. I guess we all have our opinions.



Anthony,


there is a big difference between having experience of fescue and successfully maintaining a fescue based sward. Just having experience of fescue does not make you qualified in its maintenance. I do not know Eric Johnson and I am sure he has a good pedigree but my understanding is that Bandon is abandoning trying to maintain a fescue sward letting poa take over.



I think John Kirk's post shows where the problem lies in that he states 'To the best of my knowledge, there have been zero new golf courses west of the Cascade mountains that have maintained pure stands of either bent or fescue greens'  here lies the crux of the problem. It is just about impossible to maintain a 'pure fescue' green's sward (I have seen this only twice) but fortunately a true 'links sward' is not pure fescue but a mix of fescue, agrostis (browntop (colonial?)) and poa.

Anyone trying to produce a pure fescue sward outside of a semi-arid climate setting themselves up to fail.



John,
  I get it, don't worry.

 Where would you say to start in the US, then? There are very few courses that have even tried fescue, so there are very few with an experience even maintaining it. Those guys are more knowledgeable than 99.98% of the other Superintendents in the country that have not maintained it, right? The team at Bandon (and where they have gone onto) have to have some of the most knowledge about fescue just via trial, error and experience.
  But didn't the same happen at Ballyneal? Originally fescue, but has been regrassed to bent? I'm not completely familiar with their climate, but its certainly more arid that the coast of Washington/Oregon.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 06:19:34 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ben Sims

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2018, 12:24:07 AM »
It’s generally disheartening to see our GB&I friends come here and smash on the fescue projects here in the States. I think it’s easy to chime in from a different climate and think you understand the Pacific Northwest and in particular, Chambers Bay.


If you want to see what a lean fescue sward looks like, all you have to do if flip on a tape of the 2015 US Open. As overblown as the issue came to be, the writing was on the wall then. This is the best agronomy news for CB since the hiring of Eric and Josh.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2018, 04:32:45 AM »

Anthony,


where would I start? The problem as I see it is the mindset in the US towards a pure, mono culture sward and the fact that this then sets the situation up for a battle of man against nature.



Whether it is with agrostis palustris or fescue or even poa it is folly in my opinion to try for a monoculture unless you have the climate to allow this and such a climate is very rare. Mother nature is very clear that she does not like a monoculture and will always ensure it does not survive.


Lets look at a standard 'Links' sward. It is mainly made up of fescue, browntop bent and poa annua. The fescue is desirable for the playing qualities it offers along with the drought resistance and its low nutrient needs. Poa is desirable for its ability to repair damaged area of the sward quickly. Browntop bent is desirable as a buffer to poa inorder to prevent poa from taking over the sward and eventually smothering the fescue. Without the browntop poa will take over but with it the poa can be kept in check. With these three in the sward you create a good balance to ensure the sward offers an acceptable playing surface all year round.


The other important factor is rootzone and more specifically the depth of rootzone. The vast majority of links courses (indeed older courses) do not have a blanket drainage layer meaning that even if a herringbone pipe system has been installed the effective rootzone around the pipes is as deep as the roots will grow. I have seen browntop roots going down over 18" and fescues 6'+ which gives them a massive advantage in drier times. A blanket drainage layer as is usual in the US (as far a I understand it) eradicates this advantage of browntop and fescue so giving them less chance to resist the spread of poa.


Finally, as to climate. I do not know how well fescue reacts to high humidity over a longer period of time (several months) but I can imagine it would struggle. However in a semi arid climate it does fine and indeed it is one of the few situations where a pure fescue sward will survive as a monoculture as I have done it myself. High temperature is not a problem unless you want colour after midday.


My take on it is that most of the attempts to maintain fescue based greens in the US is down to a lack of understanding on the fundamentals. If you are going to try to create a 'pure' fescue sward on a blanket drainage base with less than three foot of dirty sand (sand/soil) rootzone then you are almost certainly going to fail in the long run.




Bn Sms (whoever this is),


in my experience when you are trying to do something new it is always a good idea as a business to employ people with a proven track record with the product you are planning to create. With a project such a CB I would think this would mean having a top agronomist (super) from the region for the very important insight they will have into the climate. It also must include someone who has a proven track record in maintaining a high quality 'fescue/links' sward and finally someone who has a proven track record of running the admin side of maintenance. All three need to be in place at the planning stage to avoid making the errors that led to the CB 2015 US Open situation.


You are correct that it is easy to make judgements about things from far away but simply to say it is down to the climate whilst being dismissive of critics when constructive suggestion and opinions are viewed is a sure way to repeat the same mistakes over.


I am in no way trying to belittle or criticise individuals or their abilities just offering my honest insights.

Kyle Harris

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2018, 05:56:21 AM »
Well, we all can't employ entry-level jobs with 30 years experience...  ::)


"Y'all" understand we work for owners, right?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

John Kirk

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2018, 11:41:51 AM »
I happen to have notes on the grasses planted at Ballyneal and Chambers Bay, which were built at about the same time.

Ballyneal greens were planted with two types of fescue (red and Chewings) (total of 70%) and browntop bent (30%).

Chambers Bay was planted with two types of fescue (red and Chewings) (total of 90-95%) and browntop bent (5-10%).

Adding to the information, the experiences at Bandon caused the resort to reduce the percentage of bent in the grassing mix to be reduced from about 8% at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes down to 0% for Old Macdonald.

In all these cases, Poa annua eventually encroached on the playing surfaces.  At Ballyneal, the encroachment took a couple years longer to make a significant appearance (say 5-10% of the total surface).  Ballyneal is a harsh, arid environment, less hospitable to Poa, and therefore the effort to overseed the greens with bent has been quite successful.  I would now estimate the Bent - Poa - fescue percentages to be something like 60-20-20, and they now putt more smoothly than they have since the first couple of years, when the greens were smooth and slow.

My experience as a longtime member at Pumpkin Ridge in Oregon informs my opinions about Poa infestation.  The club opened in 1992 with pure Penncross bent greens; by 1999 Poa percentages in the greens were increasing exponentially.  After fighting the infestation for one year, the club wisely decided to encourage the establishment of Poa on the greens.  After a two to three year transition period, the greens improved year after year, and after 26 years the greens are now superb putting surfaces, fast and smooth, easily groomed to increase putting speeds as needed.

The current superintendent a Pumpkin Ridge has done something to encourage bent in the fairways, and it has been somewhat successful.  It must have something to do with the length of grass that makes bent more competitive in the fairways.

Similarly, Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes briefly fought the Poa, then modified their practices to encourage it, and now the greens are in good shape again.  Bandon Trails is in the late stages of the transition.  I'm sure our weather is substantially similar to England, but the general rules in the Pacific Northwest seems to be:  1) until recently(?), the initial seeding of a golf course could not be done with Poa, 2) Poa starts appearing significantly on the greens within 6-8 years, during which time the grass has poor characteristics for putting, and 3) within a few years, the Poa plants begin to adpt to the low mowing environment and create a fine surface for putting well suited to the environment.

Here in the Pac NW, until further notice, humans cannot prevent Poa annua from dominating golf courses, especially the greens.
 



Ben Sims

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2018, 11:47:00 AM »
Jon,


My apologies, but I feel that I am being less dismissive of your criticism than you are of Eric and Josh’s previous experience and qualification. It isn’t like Kemper hired Joe Blow bermuda superintendent to manage fescue in Tacoma. As Tony eluded to above, there’s a small cadre of fescue experience in the US and both Eric and Josh are right up there with Ken Nice and Jeff Sutherland as the gurus of that genre.


I think another commonly glossed-over element of Chambers Bay is soil structure. Don Mahaffey was the first person to bring this to my attention. We still don’t have a detailed understanding of what happens to soil when we disturb it ad nauseum. In the case of Chambers Bay, from what I understand, a substantial amount of soil was removed, taken off site, sifted, washed, and brought back on site. I can’t imagine that that practice didn’t have a dramatic impact on the issues Chambers Bay faces later in life.


The last thing I’ll offer, this isn’t a wholesale regrassing. The fairways and surrounds aren’t going anywhere. This is also the case at Bandon, Ballyneal, and others.  The fescue sward is thriving in the fairways. No, this is confined to the greens themselves. The stress levels required of a modern green, in my opinion, make it difficult to have a monostand of fescue. That said, none of these places were planted as a mono-stand. I forget where, but I’ve read that the seed mix for most of the modern fescue courses in the US was a careful selection of 2-3 cultivars of fine fescue (chewing, red, sheep) and a small amount of bent (brown top perhaps?).  (Just saw John Kirk’s notes above, seems we both have the same idea) I may be wrong on this, but I don’t think I am.


Bottom line, poa annual is going to get in no matter what you do. And when the modern market demands a certain level of stress be maintained to make customers/owners happy, that makes it easier for poa to encroach. Cheers to Josh and Eric for getting the local government to agree to the closure.  Great news for Chambers Bay.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 11:51:19 AM by Bn Sms »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2018, 12:24:23 PM »
...
The other important factor is rootzone and more specifically the depth of rootzone. The vast majority of links courses (indeed older courses) do not have a blanket drainage layer meaning that even if a herringbone pipe system has been installed the effective rootzone around the pipes is as deep as the roots will grow. I have seen browntop roots going down over 18" and fescues 6'+ which gives them a massive advantage in drier times. A blanket drainage layer as is usual in the US (as far a I understand it) eradicates this advantage of browntop and fescue so giving them less chance to resist the spread of poa.
...

Does anyone know whether or not the courses in the US that were done with fescue have the drainage Jon describes?

My understanding is that TD doesn't do USGA greens, but I don't know whether he does drainage as described. I do know that the first time I played PD, the greens were awful, seeming to be mostly dirt. My best guess is this was a result of a war against poa.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Lang

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2018, 07:23:27 PM »
 8)   So who's the next to try fescue and why??? 


Sometimes doing the same thing a second time when it hasn’t worked the first is indeed just foolish. But sometimes it’s shrewd. Wisdom consists, in part, in knowing the difference. Flexibility is a virtue. But in most matters, flexibility properly kicks in only after persistence has been given a fair chance.
https://rodgerv.wordpress.com/2007/02/10/insanity-doing-the-same-thing-over-and-over-again-and-expecting-different-results/


IMHO CB needs more than improving its grasses to get me to return on purpose.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 12:03:07 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tim Leahy

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2018, 11:55:45 PM »
The "best possible experience" at a "public" golf course would include cart paths so the vast majority of golfers would have access to it.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2018, 12:09:12 AM »
The "best possible experience" at a "public" golf course would include cart paths so the vast majority of golfers would have access to it.

There is a difference between "have access" and "choose to access" . The vast majority of golfers have access to Chambers Bay.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim Leahy

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Re: Chambers Bay closing October 1
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2018, 12:22:20 AM »
The "best possible experience" at a "public" golf course would include cart paths so the vast majority of golfers would have access to it.

There is a difference between "have access" and "choose to access" . The vast majority of golfers have access to Chambers Bay.
C'mon you know that is a lie.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.