[ward peyronnin]

I have a chance to play here soon but i do not recall seeing much about this course. After playing Lawsonia I am keen to see what remains here. Who is familiar with this course and any insights to offer?

[Brian Finn]

Clovernook.  Jason Thurman is/was a member and could tell you all about it. He was nice enough to arrange a visit for a large group of us from gca a few years back, and has hosted gca folks on many other occasions, so i expect you'll get some good insights as folks see this thread. I haven't seen many Langford / Moreau courses, so I can't add much value, but I found the course a very fun play with some bold features (mounds, ridges, etc), particularly on and around greens. Like many courses of its vintage, there was some tree overgrowth, which in some cases obscured bunkers and mounds originally more part of the course.  It's certainly a course that would truly shine with tree removal and green pad reclamation, but it remains a course I'd very gladly play again, given the chance. Their greenkeeper spoke to us over dinner, and they clearly had a proud membership and staff, which is terrific. Finally, they have Evans Scholar caddies, which is a program i think we can all support. Have fun and please report back with your thoughts.

[Brian Finn]

Here's a great tour thread by Jason:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55672.0.html

[ward peyronnin]

Good info Briann,
I found the threads form that outing and have pm'd some folks. Fall willbe a great time to see the course

[Michael Wolf]

I worked at Clovernook for a dozen years in the pro shop and as caddymaster in the late 80's/early 90's. Jason's hole-by-hole commentary is spot on. A few more Clovernook notes...


- First head pro's at Clovernook were Archie Simpson Sr and Jr of Carnoustie, Cruden Bay, and Nairn fame. Archie Sr served a couple of stints when his son died. Simpson left Clovernook and eventually ended up at CC of Detroit. The club had 5 head pro's in it's first 90 years.


- Clovernook was longtime sectional qualifier for US Open before changes to PGA Tour schedule necessitated moving the sectional up to be more near Muirfield Village. Gary Player qualified out of Clovernook.


- There should be a copy of the original routing map hanging in pro shop. The only significant change to the routing is the tee box on 13, which used to sit much farther to the left and on other side of road than it does now. That change has to be more than 50 years old and I'd assume had something to do with the road into the club.


- Clovernook is indeed in desperate need of tree removal and bunker restoration plan. Eyelash fairway bunkers have deteriorated even since I worked there. Used to be much higher faces on the fairway bunkers on 1, 5, 12.


- Greens are mostly still all original, with the exception I think of 7, which has been tinkered with a few times. (I guess it depends on your definition of original)


- The last club pro to win a PGA Tour event, Tom Nieporte from Winged Foot, learned to play as a caddy at Clovernook. He won the national caddy championship representing the club. Clovernook still has a very strong caddy program of high school kids and I'm sure the club still heavily supports the Evans Scholar program.


- I'm very much biased as Clovernook is my first love, but IMO Clovernook is example A of a club that should knock down their clubhouse, fill in the swimming pool, remove virtually every tree on the property, and market itself as the "just great golf" facility that Cincinnati would love to support. Very frustrating to see the success at Moraine 30 miles up the road while Clovernook sits.


MW

[Jason Thurman]

In addition to Michael's notes, Clovernook is also where Casey Martin qualified for the US Open.


Clovernook is a lot of fun. The ebb and flow of the round and the variety it presents is really outstanding. The original routing map is really interesting - if a real restoration ever happened out there, it could be pretty special. It has a special place in my heart regardless.

[Criss Titschinger]

I haven't played Camargo, Coldstream, or Hyde Park. I have played pretty much everything else worth playing around town. Clovernook is still my favorite course in Cincy that I've played, and as others mentioned, it really could be even better with a bit of work. I remember the greens being very large and interesting; and very fast. 15 might be the scariest tee-shot in Cincinnati, as there's not a whole lot of protection from a slice finding Galbraith Road.

A good mix of holes keeps things interesting on a relatively tight piece of land. The land movement is good, and a creek will come into play on 4 of the first 5 holes. The 18th at Clovernook reminded me a lot of the 18th at Wakonda; a tight, short, uphill par 4, where a lot of numbers were in play to end the round.

Interesting about the clubhouse, as they really spent too much money doing what they did to it. It was one of my top choices for clubs to join in town, but I ultimately joined where I did because of proximity to my house, a better practice facility, and price. My club IS golf only, which helps keeps fees down. A head-to-head comparison of the courses themselves though, Clovernook comes way out on top. Certainly a course you shouldn't turn down an invite if you're in the Cincinnati area.

[Michael Wolf]

Chris,


Clovernook's clubhouse renovation is an absolute tragedy. It makes my head hurt to think of the mistakes made and money wasted.


And now I can't believe what I've heard about MiamiView considering going down the same road? What in the world are they thinking? MiamiView has had the best operating model in town for 50 years.


MW

[Rich Goodale]

- First head pro's at Clovernook were Archie Simpson Sr and Jr of Carnoustie, Cruden Bay, and Nairn fame. Archie Sr served a couple of stints when his son died. Simpson left Clovernook and eventually ended up at CC of Detroit. The club had 5 head pro's in it's first 90 years.

Michael


From my research, Archie Simpson (Sr.) moved from Royal Aberdeen to CC of Detroit in 1911, staying there for a few years which included laying out the new course designed by Harry Colt in 1911-12.  He left CCD abruptly in 1913 or so for reasons I can only speculate on, and then returned to the USA c. 1920 (with one of his sons) to work at Clovernook, and at other places in the Midwest until he died ignominiously in 1965, in Detroit.


If you know more about Archie, please let me know, and note below:


http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/The-Pioneer-Archie-Simpson

Rich

PS--the picture in article above is not me.

Fake News!

rfg

[ward peyronnin]

Reading the above two things come to mind.
Regarding Archie Simpson Rich do you find it interesting that he was also involved with the Vincennes CC at that time which was another L&M design? Was he site man for them in Cincinnnati also?

Also regarding improvements I note that although many courses in the greater Cinci area are listed as rater opportunities Clovernook is not ad I get the feel they aren't by design? So I assume they are not much interested in feedback on the course?

[Rich Goodale]

Wardo


You are right and I remember appreciate your help vis a vis Vincennes several years ago.


Archie moved around quite a bit after coming back to the USA in the 1920's.  He died in Detroit in 1955, so he probably did a lot of head pro/archie gigs in the midwest in the interim.


A sad story, in the end....


Rich


PS--hope all is well in Wardoland!


rfg

[Jeff Shelman]

There are some really cool greens and good bunkering out there.


But like others mentioned, it would be a good place for a meeting of chain saw appreciation society.

[Evan Fleisher]

Not much else to be said, just wanted to echo many of the other comments here regarding tree work and cool green complexes.  also great use of the land movement made for a ton of difficult (yet interesting) lies and angles to greens.

[Sven Nilsen]

Clovernook initially hired Archie Simpson Jr., not Sr.  I doubt either of them had anything to do with the construction of the course.

March 8, 1925 Cincinnati Enquirer -

[Sven Nilsen]

Prior to Simpson, Jr. was a guy named Herb Sutkamp.

March 22, 1925 Cincinnati Enquirer -

[Michael Wolf]

I believe I've posted this before, or at least shared it via DM with several who asked, but I was able to find ad's and an article regarding Archie Sr's plans to open an indoor golf school in Cincinnati in between his assignments at Clovernook and CCD. To me it seemed like he was panning to build a large barn like structure and hang nets so he could teach golf lessons in the wintertime. I was not able to find any information on if he ever went through with his plan.


Sutkamp was engaged by the club, but I believe was replaced by Simpson and Simpson before play ever really got going. When the club lists 5 professional's in it's first 90 years, he is not included.


One final clue on the course: there is an alternate tee on 12 to the right of 11 green that creates a much different (and IMO more interesting angle) for the short 12th. This alt tee seems out of place with what I've seen at other L&M's. I've wondered if that was an early Simpson contribution?


And finally, while the tree growth rightly catches knowledgeable visitors eyes as example A of what should be first to go, I really think a lot of the intent of L&M has been destroyed just in the last 25 years with the almost complete deterioration of the pushup eyelash bunkers. Maybe I'm getting old, but I sure remember them being much taller and visually more intimidating. Clovernook's wonderful greens would be even more of strategic puzzles if the gulleys and fairway bunkers still influenced play off the tee and approaches into the greens as L&M intended.


Michael

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[JLahrman]

I grew up in Cincinnati but never played Clovernook. Nevertheless I still have affection for it as it is where my dad grew up caddying and subsequently learning to play golf. And I doubt I would have picked up golf without my father introducing me to the game. Also where my dad learned to smoke, in the caddyshack when he was about 14. Fortunately he gave up that habit when I was young; he didn't quite give up golf though.

[ward peyronnin]

Michael
When I toured Old Towne in Winston Salem their restoration work had revealed as much as 5 FEET of sand had been added to  the bunkers when the members found them too hard to escape from. Maybe a similar instance. I saw bunkers being redone and hope they cored to see what the original sand elevations were?

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