Brora vs Turnberry

[Mark Fedeli]

"Its 3 to 8 foot crumpled ground features are ideal for golf and represent the sort of rippling terrain that man is incapable of replicating, try as he might. Big dunes on undeveloped land exist to the north but would only yield a more photogenic course with less playing qualities. The joys baked into this relatively simplistic design exceed those found on many over shaped modern courses and highlight that money is no substitute for great property. It's a shame that some people fail to give courses due credit, just because they are so natural in their presentation."


Confidential Guide sums it up well.

[Clyde Johnson]

The thing that disappoints me more than anything with Turnberry is the lack of original greens or anything that resembles uniqueness to the site that I haven't seen before. The more and more I play 'championship' links courses in the UK that have been altered, the more I see this ribbon effect on the edges of the greens with run-offs. It looks like a ribbon going up and down and up and down. It's too uniform to be natural, and ultimately, becomes commonplace and boring.



Tim,


Have you played enough 'championship' links courses to differentiate between the 'ribbon' moves of contrasting architects yet?


(It's most infuriating when you see these moves in a punchbowl/base of dune setting.)


The homogenisation of our best links courses is a worrying trend. I wonder if it comes from architect, contractor, or most likely both!?

[Niall C]

Mark

Brora is fairly natural in its presentation in so much as its not overly manicured, however how "natural" do you thnk some of those green sites are ?

Niall

[Mark Fedeli]

Mark

Brora is fairly natural in its presentation in so much as its not overly manicured, however how "natural" do you thnk some of those green sites are ?

Niall

Niall,


I don't really know. I'm actually not a hardcore minimalist by any means. I just like bold, non-standard features and playing fun ground shots. The more I play courses like North Berwick and Brora and Prestwick and Dornoch and Cruden Bay, the more I get bored with much of what I'm forced to play here in the states, which Turnberry reminded me far too much of.

[Niall C]

Mark

I'd hazard a guess that most if not all the green complexes at Brora are built rather than completely natural which basically puts them on a par with Turnberry even if Turnberry's were done by machine rather than say horse and scoop/men with a wheel barrow. The key aspect for both in terms of the running game is having them firm and fast. As I said before, the issue you had with Turnberry regarding it being less than F&F might have to do with the turf being new or it may just be the Donalds preference. It doesn't necessarily mean the ground movement isn't there, although I will qualify that by saying again that I haven't seen the new Turnberry.

With regards the examples you cite, NB and RD both have a number of approaches requiring lofted approaches rather the running shot.

Niall

[Mark Fedeli]

Mark

I'd hazard a guess that most if not all the green complexes at Brora are built rather than completely natural which basically puts them on a par with Turnberry even if Turnberry's were done by machine rather than say horse and scoop/men with a wheel barrow. The key aspect for both in terms of the running game is having them firm and fast. As I said before, the issue you had with Turnberry regarding it being less than F&F might have to do with the turf being new or it may just be the Donalds preference. It doesn't necessarily mean the ground movement isn't there, although I will qualify that by saying again that I haven't seen the new Turnberry.

With regards the examples you cite, NB and RD both have a number of approaches requiring lofted approaches rather the running shot.

Niall

Niall,


I do appreciate you pushing back on this a bit, because it would be quite easy for me to overstate my criticisms of Turnberry for the sake of a dramatic thread. But that's really not what I'm intending to do. I was genuinely disappointed with the golf course.


I have nothing against lofted approaches either. Some of my favorite golf memories ever, like many on here, involve hitting over the wall at North Berwick, or over the Himalayas or Alps or Cardinal bunker at Prestwick, or heroically carrying any number of burns throughout the country. (My home course is Bethpage Black, where long/high/straight is the requirement.)


And of course there is ground movement at Turnberry, and it's possible to play ground shots, it's just not very exciting or unique, especially considering the highly-regarded name of the course. But again, I would immediately walk back some of my criticism if just one person could remind me of a terrific bold and exceptional feature at Turnberry that compares with those listed above and doesn't involve rocky cliffs, lighthouse views, or irrelevant dunescapes.

[Niall C]

Mark

Not trying to pick a fight but to paraphrase Burns I am interested in how others see us. And to say what I’ve said before, I can’t really compare Brora and the other courses you list with something I’ve not seen, though your opinion on the new Turnberry, as distinct from your reasoning, does seem to be a bit of an outlier. Ally says he has heard from someone else who wasn’t that impressed but everyone else I’ve heard who’s played it has been most complimentary.

Once I’ve played it myself, I’ll need to come back and revisit this thread. 

Niall

[Mark Fedeli]

Mark

Not trying to pick a fight but to paraphrase Burns I am interested in how others see us. And to say what I’ve said before, I can’t really compare Brora and the other courses you list with something I’ve not seen, though your opinion on the new Turnberry, as distinct from your reasoning, does seem to be a bit of an outlier. Ally says he has heard from someone else who wasn’t that impressed but everyone else I’ve heard who’s played it has been most complimentary.

Once I’ve played it myself, I’ll need to come back and revisit this thread. 

Niall

Fair enough. It's certainly not a bad course and I am surely doing a bit of generalizing. I had a great time and no doubt there are some terrific features that I missed. I just found it to be lesser than, not only to the classics, but most of the name brand newer links I've played. To your final point, I must say, my impression is that there are quite a few more people on this thread that agree with my basic assessment than not.

[Tim Gallant]

The thing that disappoints me more than anything with Turnberry is the lack of original greens or anything that resembles uniqueness to the site that I haven't seen before. The more and more I play 'championship' links courses in the UK that have been altered, the more I see this ribbon effect on the edges of the greens with run-offs. It looks like a ribbon going up and down and up and down. It's too uniform to be natural, and ultimately, becomes commonplace and boring.



Tim,


Have you played enough 'championship' links courses to differentiate between the 'ribbon' moves of contrasting architects yet?


(It's most infuriating when you see these moves in a punchbowl/base of dune setting.)


The homogenisation of our best links courses is a worrying trend. I wonder if it comes from architect, contractor, or most likely both!?

Clyde,


I can't say I have. It's come to my attention more this year, than in years past. What brought it to my attention at first was when playing Royal Aberdeen. I love the course, but noticed some of the greens that have been redone looked homogeneous and there was this sort of 'ribbon' looking contouring on the outer edges of the green with shaved close run-offs to small bowls below. Then I saw it at a few other places and at Turnberry (although honestly, Turnberry wasn't as bad as I maybe made out in my initial post. I'd need to play it again). Sure, the greens are fair, but I'd rather unfair greens that were original


Would be very interested to hear your thoughts and if there are 'signature' contours that you know certain architects rely on over and over as it relates to this ribboning.

[Thomas Dai]

Ribbon edges with run-offs. Traits of Donald Steel and those who worked with him perhaps? See also Enniscrone?
Atb