Sand Valley - Course #4

[Tom_Doak]

Has Streamsong prohibited play from the Silver tees on its three courses? It seems that they all run 6200 yards or so, which would be sporty enough for anyone.

Ron:


Sure, every course there offers a 6200-yard option.  That's the most common objection past clients have had to this concept:  why don't you just build the 7000-yard course and let the people who want to play 6200 yards play it from there?


But it's different.  For example, I assume that Mammoth Dunes' width is greater because David was thinking people were hitting driver on every hole, and lots of long approach shots.


Plus, if you design a 7000-yard course, getting to the 6200 yard tees is usually a much longer walk than just walking to the back tee.  Indeed, four or five sets of tees instead of three generally means more walking for everyone.


The smaller the puzzle, the easier it is to make all the pieces fit together seamlessly.

[Ryan Coles]

How much influence do other courses already on site, directly have an architects decision making?


Is it still build the best possible course? Or is it a case of we need to be different rather than more of the same?

[Sean_A]

Has Streamsong prohibited play from the Silver tees on its three courses? It seems that they all run 6200 yards or so, which would be sporty enough for anyone.

Ron:

Plus, if you design a 7000-yard course, getting to the 6200 yard tees is usually a much longer walk than just walking to the back tee.  Indeed, four or five sets of tees instead of three generally means more walking for everyone.

The smaller the puzzle, the easier it is to make all the pieces fit together seamlessly.

Cha ching.  This is the first time I recall an archie rebelling against 5-7 sets of tees and the necessary added walk due to this approach.  Most archies are trying to accomplish the impossible and and at least go through the motions of designing for nearly all golfers when they damn well know the how disjointed designs become when the solution is mega tees.  IMO this is one of the worst architectural trends in my golfing lifetime.  It has partly fueled stupidly long courses and consequently cart use on land which shouldn't require carts.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

How much influence do other courses already on site, directly have an architects decision making?


Is it still build the best possible course? Or is it a case of we need to be different rather than more of the same?

I guess different architects might see this differently.  Personally, I enjoy having other courses there, so I can try to emphasize the contrasts between my course and the others, instead of starting from my own "templates".  But I think I'm different than most guys, in that there aren't many things I insist on putting into all of my courses.  Instead, I've got 100 different ideas hoping to get off the bench someday when the right little stretch of ground comes along.


The idea of "the best possible course" is kind of misguided really.  Who's to say whether a different style of bunkers, or smaller greens vs bigger greens with more contour, is better?  I have enjoyed all of these styles in different places.  So, I would prefer to make my course LOOK as different as possible from its neighbors.


But there is a difference between style and substance.  I'm still trying to find what I think is the best combination of 18 holes that fit together well.  I'm not going to give up a great hole because there is a similar one on SV or MD.  Although, I did not build a Redan hole at The Renaissance Club or Sebonack, knowing that the two best examples were next door to those two courses.  There are some comparisons you don't want to invite!


At the same time, there are some comparisons you're happy to draw.  I thought the par-5 holes at SV and MD were all massive holes, and I'm glad not to have any holes like that on my par 68.  When it worked out that #5 was a par 3 and then there wasn't much room to #7 tee, my brain went immediately to 5 & 6 at Pulborough which are back to back par 3's, and I'm happy to draw that comparison (knowing full well that less than 10 visitors a year to SV will have actually played West Sussex).

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, do you have an ETA, even if approximate, on various aspects of the course, e.g. final design, starting to work in the ground, and open for play? 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, do you have an ETA, even if approximate, on various aspects of the course, e.g. final design, starting to work in the ground, and open for play?

Jim:


The final design will happen when the last hole is shaped.  Until then I am working on it 

They will do a bit of clearing this fall.  It's possible we will start shaping some holes next year, but they are not committed to a timetable yet.  Building the course would be easy, but it doesn't make sense unless they also build some more rooms, which is a bigger financial commitment.

To tell the truth, the article about the project was premature; the writer was insistent on running a story, even though he didn't know the whole story.  I think he was actually hoping that reporting I'd been talking to other potential clients was going to disqualify me for this job, but it didn't work out that way.  Time will tell how it all pans out.
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[Peter Flory]

One thing about SV is that there are a lot of houses that can be rented nearby.  I've seen very nice rental houses there for $130/night.  Of you can splurge and get a massive cabin on a lake for a lot less than the onsite lodging. 


Streamsong is the polar opposite.  Bandon is somewhere in between. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Has Streamsong prohibited play from the Silver tees on its three courses? It seems that they all run 6200 yards or so, which would be sporty enough for anyone.

Ron:

Plus, if you design a 7000-yard course, getting to the 6200 yard tees is usually a much longer walk than just walking to the back tee.  Indeed, four or five sets of tees instead of three generally means more walking for everyone.

The smaller the puzzle, the easier it is to make all the pieces fit together seamlessly.

Cha ching.  This is the first time I recall an archie rebelling against 5-7 sets of tees and the necessary added walk due to this approach.  Most archies are trying to accomplish the impossible and and at least go through the motions of designing for nearly all golfers when they damn well know the how disjointed designs become when the solution is mega tees.  IMO this is one of the worst architectural trends in my golfing lifetime.  It has partly fueled stupidly long courses and consequently cart use on land which shouldn't require carts.

Ciao

Ah come on Sean. Tom should get a lot of credit for being a pioneer and innovator but he seems to get credit for being the “first” to every idea, whether true or not. Luckily for us, he’s good enough to share these ideas regularly which helps everyone in the long run I think.


For what it’s worth, I’m currently in the process of reducing Strandhill from 4 to 3 sets of tees, although 4 or 5 holes will remain with an extra back marker.

[Sean_A]

Has Streamsong prohibited play from the Silver tees on its three courses? It seems that they all run 6200 yards or so, which would be sporty enough for anyone.

Ron:

Plus, if you design a 7000-yard course, getting to the 6200 yard tees is usually a much longer walk than just walking to the back tee.  Indeed, four or five sets of tees instead of three generally means more walking for everyone.

The smaller the puzzle, the easier it is to make all the pieces fit together seamlessly.

Cha ching.  This is the first time I recall an archie rebelling against 5-7 sets of tees and the necessary added walk due to this approach.  Most archies are trying to accomplish the impossible and and at least go through the motions of designing for nearly all golfers when they damn well know the how disjointed designs become when the solution is mega tees.  IMO this is one of the worst architectural trends in my golfing lifetime.  It has partly fueled stupidly long courses and consequently cart use on land which shouldn't require carts.

Ciao

Ah come on Sean. Tom should get a lot of credit for being a pioneer and innovator but he seems to get credit for being the “first” to every idea, whether true or not. Luckily for us, he’s good enough to share these ideas regularly which helps everyone in the long run I think.

For what it’s worth, I’m currently in the process of reducing Strandhill from 4 to 3 sets of tees, although 4 or 5 holes will remain with an extra back marker.

A few designers may be practicing the design of minimal tees, but few go public about it...at least the media I read.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Well I would have thought actually building less tees is a way of going public but I get what you’re saying.

[Sean_A]

I wouldn't care so much about an extra set of tees if they focused on using the available width to create different angles.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Width or no width, I don’t like any more than 4 sets.


But it goes without saying that it’s better to offset the tees as much as possible, not only to create different playing angles but also to hide each tee from the view - more aesthetically pleasing... but to be honest, it’s often best to just place them where the natural land suggests. They always look best that way.

[Brock Lynch]

Has Streamsong prohibited play from the Silver tees on its three courses? It seems that they all run 6200 yards or so, which would be sporty enough for anyone.

Ron:

Plus, if you design a 7000-yard course, getting to the 6200 yard tees is usually a much longer walk than just walking to the back tee.  Indeed, four or five sets of tees instead of three generally means more walking for everyone.

The smaller the puzzle, the easier it is to make all the pieces fit together seamlessly.

Cha ching.  This is the first time I recall an archie rebelling against 5-7 sets of tees and the necessary added walk due to this approach.  Most archies are trying to accomplish the impossible and and at least go through the motions of designing for nearly all golfers when they damn well know the how disjointed designs become when the solution is mega tees.  IMO this is one of the worst architectural trends in my golfing lifetime.  It has partly fueled stupidly long courses and consequently cart use on land which shouldn't require carts.

Ciao

To provide one example, my family and I have played all of the courses at Bandon and each course has 5 sets of tees. My wife plays from Orange and my sons and I played from Green. I did not notice that there was extra walking because of the different sets of tees as they were generally in the same direction as the line of play. There were some set off to one side or the other to create a different angle but nothing that created a noticeably longer walk. Giving people more playing options makes their experience more enjoyable. We have also played courses (mainly overseas) that do not have shorter tee options. The result is that many forced carries are just not possible for my wife. So, she will play from a spot more forward so that she can play the hole as it was intended. It is nice for her to have tees that are appropriate for her skill & strength level so that she doesn't have to make up her own tees to make the course playable. I have always thought that it would be a small investment for the course to provide more people enjoyable playing opportunities.


Brock

[Sean_A]

Brock

I would argue the real issue is that forward tees are generally too long and should be in the region of 5000ish yards...max....so the knock on effect is courses are too long.  How is an archie meant to create a good walk for all when tees are spread from 6800 to 4800 yards?

The issue is minimalized when the course is designed for walks to flow from greens to daily tees (something in the neighbourhood of 5600-6200 yards)...even so...its a lot of forward walking for the forward tees.  Of course, piling onto the problem is the modern idea of safety buffers between greens and tees.  In any case, I would argue that the problem of carry distance isn't solely down to a lack of forward tees, it is also down to architectural choices and/or rough not being cleared out. 

Be that as it may, I think that sometimes the situation you describe can be avoided by well forward tees or tees set at angles to avoid harsh carries.  I just played Sunningdale New with a short hitter and I was more frustrated than she was with the forced carries! She was striking the ball well and failing to carry the heather.   The spread of tees tends to be far less in the UK than in the US, however, there aren't usually many harsh carries for the forward tees.  At Sunny New the forward tees are 5800 yards (I could happily play off that set!)...and many holes require long carries for those who play forward tees.  It would be a simple matter to create tees halfway through the heather even if it isn't ideal.  Instead, there are tees set at 6100 and 5800...rather odd. 

Generally speaking, if there are going to be back tees I would much prefer them to be very obviously the backs...something at least 500 yards longer than the next set...to make it clear these tees are for very good players and/or special events.  This approach not only encourages golfers to be more realistic about which tees they choose, but also puts the major burden of the extra walk on the golfers looking for something special.  All that said, sometimes we have to accept that not all courses are for all golfers. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Woodhall Spa has numerous forced carries from the tee over heather and uneven ground. Not so nice for shorter hitters and physically weaker individuals. At the edges of the fairways however they have additional forward tees like the one shown below. Seems a reasonable compromise.
atb

[JC Jones]

But it's different.  For example, I assume that Mammoth Dunes' width is greater because David was thinking people were hitting driver on every hole, and lots of long approach shots.

The person playing the 6100 yard tees on a 7000 yard golf course is hitting driver on every hole.  In fact, I'd say you probably dont want to assume that people are hitting less than driver on every hole because the octogenarian for whom this course is being designed will find it to be too hard.


I'm still trying to figure this whole thing out as the story seems to be shifting around as if it wasn't quite final when the announcement was made.  I wonder how much of this decision was rushed because Doak had agreed to do something at Kohler and Keiser was feeling the heat of competition.

[PCCraig]

I wonder how much of this decision was rushed because Doak had agreed to do something at Kohler and Keiser was feeling the heat of competition.

Do you seriously believe that Sand Valley and Destination Kohler compete for the same clientele?

[JC Jones]

I wonder how much of this decision was rushed because Doak had agreed to do something at Kohler and Keiser was feeling the heat of competition.

Do you seriously believe that Sand Valley and Destination Kohler compete for the same clientele?

Absolutely.

[PCCraig]

I wonder how much of this decision was rushed because Doak had agreed to do something at Kohler and Keiser was feeling the heat of competition.

Do you seriously believe that Sand Valley and Destination Kohler compete for the same clientele?

Absolutely.

No chance. I've spent time and both and the "typical" guest is much different at each. One is a very corporate outing driven resort with spas, "luxury", etc. and the other mainly tailors itself to small groups of guys who like to golf all day and drink themselves to sleep. The golfer who is excited to play Whistling Straits is not the same guy who is excited to play C&C's Sand Valley.

[JC Jones]

I wonder how much of this decision was rushed because Doak had agreed to do something at Kohler and Keiser was feeling the heat of competition.

Do you seriously believe that Sand Valley and Destination Kohler compete for the same clientele?

Absolutely.

No chance. I've spent time and both and the "typical" guest is much different at each. One is a very corporate outing driven resort with spas, "luxury", etc. and the other mainly tailors itself to small groups of guys who like to golf all day and drink themselves to sleep. The golfer who is excited to play Whistling Straits is not the same guy who is excited to play C&C's Sand Valley.

There is a larger overlap in the venn diagram of potential customers than the cognoscenti may think (or hope).  And the margin on the Sand Valley side is much smaller than the Kohler side.

[Kalen Braley]

I've gotta think JC is correct here.


Of course they are not the exact same base, but the overlap among those who have expendable income to spend at either Sand Valley or Kohler has gotta be substantial.  I see Sand Valley being much closer to Bandon in cost structure and its damn expensive to travel, lodge, and play there in peak season.

[Mark Pritchett]

I wonder how much of this decision was rushed because Doak had agreed to do something at Kohler and Keiser was feeling the heat of competition.

Do you seriously believe that Sand Valley and Destination Kohler compete for the same clientele?

Absolutely.

No chance. I've spent time and both and the "typical" guest is much different at each. One is a very corporate outing driven resort with spas, "luxury", etc. and the other mainly tailors itself to small groups of guys who like to golf all day and drink themselves to sleep. The golfer who is excited to play Whistling Straits is not the same guy who is excited to play C&C's Sand Valley.

Pat,


Pretty sure most of the "typical" Sand Valley guests you mention would jump at a chance to go to Kohler to play a Tom Doak course, hence JC's comment above referencing a "rushed" decision. 

[Peter Pallotta]

One bonus of a 6200 yard course is that I could play the back tees and say that I 'saw the whole golf course' -- and then, if Ben Crenshaw or Brad Faxon visited, or if I had a round with, say, Jim Sullivan, I'd have the satisfaction of knowing that we all played the same tees, and the same golf course. Oh, that's priceless - even at the Mr. K price-point!

[Tom_Doak]

To provide one example, my family and I have played all of the courses at Bandon and each course has 5 sets of tees. My wife plays from Orange and my sons and I played from Green. I did not notice that there was extra walking because of the different sets of tees as they were generally in the same direction as the line of play. There were some set off to one side or the other to create a different angle but nothing that created a noticeably longer walk. Giving people more playing options makes their experience more enjoyable. We have also played courses (mainly overseas) that do not have shorter tee options. The result is that many forced carries are just not possible for my wife. So, she will play from a spot more forward so that she can play the hole as it was intended. It is nice for her to have tees that are appropriate for her skill & strength level so that she doesn't have to make up her own tees to make the course playable. I have always thought that it would be a small investment for the course to provide more people enjoyable playing opportunities.

Brock:


I've not seen your name here before but I can assure you this course will be playable for your wife.  In fact, the biggest fans of some of my courses [including Pacific Dunes and Sebonack] have been women golfers.


But I disagree with you about the walk.  In most cases, we need to set up the green-to-tee walks so the shortest walk is to the "back" tee, because if you have to walk back to it, there's a chance someone will duff/yank/toe their tee shot into players on the previous green.  So, you have to walk the full length of the course, plus the green-to-back tee distance, no matter what set of tees you are playing.  But if the back tees are where the white tees would normally be, and the back tees are only 6200 yards, that's 10% less you are going to walk, all else being equal.


Peter's got it right.  Pretty much every male golfer could play the back tees on this course if they want to, although you shouldn't expect to post a good score.

[Tom_Doak]

But it's different.  For example, I assume that Mammoth Dunes' width is greater because David was thinking people were hitting driver on every hole, and lots of long approach shots.

The person playing the 6100 yard tees on a 7000 yard golf course is hitting driver on every hole. 

Yes, they're hitting driver, but 100+ yard wide fairways and huge greens for people playing at 6100 yards is even more ridiculous than it is for those playing all the way back.