European Ryder Cup team

[Tony_Muldoon]

I'd say both teams look strong given the venue

One of the truisms of Golf today is how much deeper the field is and how it’s harder for anyone to dominate the way Woods, Norman, Nicklaus etc did. It’s not so long ago that Ryder Cup teams had a few marquee names and a long tail.  I don’t watch a lot of golf, but all the names in the frame this time up are familiar, and I’d agree with the strong teams’ comment.
 
 
PS McIlroy needs to do something to make this year memorable for the right reasons. His match with Reed last time was simply astonishing until he lost focus.  David Walsh in the Sunday Times recently wrote that was the moment his career started to tail off. For everyone’s sake I hope he has a stellar RC.

[Niall C]

You've got  Xander, Kuchar, Kisner, Finau, and Stanley all left on the board.


Given Kuchar was appointed as an assistant he's probably out.  But I'm guessing the Euros would love to have all of those guys, and only one of them is gonna be teeing it up in Paris...

Kalen

Thomas Bjorn might well agree with you but personally I don't see it. Not to say these guys aren't good, I mean who isn't at this level, but I wouldn't pick them over Cabella-Brero, Thomas Peiters, Russell Knox or Matt Wallace.

Niall

[Niall C]

Five rookies in the top eight make it tough to add more through picks although three victories for Wallace screams for a chance...

Amongst the nonsense discussed about the Ryder Cup, ‘Rookies’ seems to me to be the prime example.


Rahm, Fleetwood, Hatton, Noren etc are hardly likely to be deer in the headlight material at this stage of their career.


18 hole matchplay comes down to putting and putting (and 36 holes) is a young mans game.


How many times has Poulter consistently proved he’s not one of the top players in Europe, as evidenced by his repeated failure to qualify for the team on merit?


Poulter up to and including Medinah more than justified his selections. However Europe’s players all seem to play one Ryder Cup event too many.


I fear the ‘’postman’’ may this time only deliver junk and get savaged by the dog on the way out.

I agree totally and would only add about Poulter that not many folk remember how shaky he was in his first and possibly second RC's. He might have had the points against his name but he was very much the junior partner, and played like that in a lot of the fourball and foursomes matches. I say that as someone who likes the guy but I feel it's time for other "stalwarts" to come to the fore and if anything I'd be going for Pieters and Cabrera-Bello.

Niall

[Niall C]

Tony

David Walsh is to golf what I am to wind-surfing.

Niall

[Kalen Braley]

You've got  Xander, Kuchar, Kisner, Finau, and Stanley all left on the board.


Given Kuchar was appointed as an assistant he's probably out.  But I'm guessing the Euros would love to have all of those guys, and only one of them is gonna be teeing it up in Paris...

Kalen

Thomas Bjorn might well agree with you but personally I don't see it. Not to say these guys aren't good, I mean who isn't at this level, but I wouldn't pick them over Cabella-Brero, Thomas Peiters, Russell Knox or Matt Wallace.

Niall

Niall,  Perhaps, but I would certainly take them all over those 4..

World Golf Rankings:

Cebella-Brero: 29
pieters: 63
Knox: 58
Wallace: 53

OR

Xander: 20
Kisner 28
Finau 17
Stanley 27

[David_Tepper]

https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/9/5/will-garcias-selection-do-permanent-damage-to-the-european-tour

[Edward Glidewell]

Niall,  Perhaps, but I would certainly take them all over those 4..

World Golf Rankings:

Cebella-Brero: 29
pieters: 63
Knox: 58
Wallace: 53

OR

Xander: 20
Kisner 28
Finau 17
Stanley 27

I personally don't think any of those players other than Finau are significantly better than the European ones.


I don't care too much about the OWGR, though -- the system is set up as an endless feedback loop wherein playing on the PGA Tour gets you a higher ranking, which then makes PGA Tour events worth more, which then gets players in them more ranking points, and so on.  I do think the PGA Tour is stronger than the European Tour overall, but at this point it's nearly impossible for Euro Tour players to make headway in the OWGR without switching to the PGA.

[Kalen Braley]

Edward,


I would agree in concept about the limitations of the system, but it doesn't changes the reality that the PGA Tour has most of the best players in the world.  If you can do well there, you are elite.


That being said, I look at this from the perspective of where would I hedge my bets as a coach.  Perhaps its only a small difference in picking players ranked 20-30 spots higher, but every little advantage helps.

[Mark Pearce]

Edward,


I would agree in concept about the limitations of the system, but it doesn't changes the reality that the PGA Tour has most of the best players in the world.  If you can do well there, you are elite.


That being said, I look at this from the perspective of where would I hedge my bets as a coach.  Perhaps its only a small difference in picking players ranked 20-30 spots higher, but every little advantage helps.

So Fleetwood wasn't one of the best players in the world until he switched tours?  Edward is right.  Yes, the US PGA Tour is stronger than the European Tour but not as dramatically as the OWGR suggests.  And then there's momentum.  I'd have Wallace over any of the other 7 if we were betting on long term career success.

[Niall C]

Kalen

I generally agree with what others have said about the respective tours. The other thing I’d add is that both Pieters and Cabrera-Bello performed heroically as rookies last time out in a team that was well beaten (compare that to Kaymer and Westwood who were picked for their experience and I think got 1 point between them). They are rookies no more and I think have more RC points than the current Open champion and automatic pick Molinari.

Again, contrast that with Kisner, Finua etc.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

The windsurfing correspondent of the Telegraph vents re the picks.


https://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/ryder-cup/comment-the-grim-truth-about-the-ryder-cup-is-that-it-has-turned-into-a-mates-club-where-only-past-glory-is-valued-37292569.html

[Sean_A]

Why all the bother about the picks?  Do folks think Captains pick people they know aren't up to it?  About the only good thing about being named Captain of a Ryder Cup team is that the Captain is afforded the opportunity to round out a team which he thinks has the best chance to win..hopefully while creating good memories and camaraderie that will last a lifetime.  Jeepers...its just a bloody exhibition match!  Crack a brew and enjoy competitive golf.  Who wins is immaterial..says the man with 24 players!

Ciao

[Jeff Johnston]

some good stuff in that Telegraph piece IMO. A certain irony in probably the hissiest picks fit (in my memory anyway) being thrown by the man who is now European captain.

I am not overly exercised by any of it but I do think all four of the European picks can count themselves fortunate to a greater or lesser degree. One of the reasons I'd like to see Harrington get the next gig is that on what we know, he would likely bring a slightly more forensic approach to the picks (mad scientist maybe, but forensic nonetheless). The same can probably not be said of most of the others likely to be in the mix for the job.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,


There are always a few exceptions to the rule in players like Fleetwood.  But if you took the top 100 players on each tour and have them play some kind of aggregate score tournament, the PGA Tour would kill the Euro Tour..it just is what it is.


Sean,


People say that all the time about the Ryder Cup, but a trophy and tons of money is involved, with an added bonus of playing for something bigger than just yourself. And its not like they are twisting guys arms to sign up, players actively campaign and grind near the cutoff to get on the team. Call it what you like but its not just an exhibition anymore.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

People say that all the time about the Ryder Cup, but a trophy and tons of money is involved, with an added bonus of playing for something bigger than just yourself. And its not like they are twisting guys arms to sign up, players actively campaign and grind near the cutoff to get on the team. Call it what you like but its not just an exhibition anymore.

What?  Its an exhibition for fans, certainly...and thats who get riled over Captain's picks or even the basic selection process.  The players don't get much...hence their beef about where the money goes.  Why not let it play out before complaining? Why is that fans and writers think they know more than the Captains?  Lets face it, Captains roll the dice and hope for the best.  All the arguments about form, experience, rookies, veterans...don't mean squat.  Any of these players can beat each other on any given day...thats why it fun to watch.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

I was only trying to say that its fundamentally different from actual exhibitions like say for example football where:

1)  No one cares who wins pre-season games, except maybe the head coach.
2)  The regular starters maybe play 15-25% of the game.
3)  Stadiums are maybe half full.
4)  Fans aren't getting into it. (Unless its the Browns)
5)  Only the scrub players fighting for a roster spot on the bench are going full speed.

 Things evolve and like it or not the Ryder Cup is akin to the Olympics of golf and from a fan perspective probably second only to majors in popularity (and I suspect the ratings would confirm this)

I mean who travels half way across the globe so they can do thier Ole-Ole-Ole chant just for an exhibition?? 


P.S.  When multiple players say over the years its the most pressure they've felt in their career, how is that just an exhibition?

[George Pazin]

Mark,


There are always a few exceptions to the rule in players like Fleetwood.  But if you took the top 100 players on each tour and have them play some kind of aggregate score tournament, the PGA Tour would kill the Euro Tour..it just is what it is.

Kalen, perhaps you aren't aware of this, but the Ryder Cup is top 12 v top 12, not top 100 v top 100.


 


In all seriousness, if you are taking two tour pros for 18 hole matchplay, and you have them play a half dozen matches, even if it's a #10 versus a #100 guy, there really isn't that great a difference under that particular format. It sure isn't 6-0. IF they played a hundred matches, I'd expect a solid advantage to the top 10 guy, but they play very few in the Ryder Cup, and it takes very little to sway the momentum - a putt here, a lucky break on a bounce there, etc.


It's more like an NCAA 8/9 game or a 7/10 game, it's nothing like a 1/16 or even a 2/15, to put it into terms that will confuse the foreign members on here.......

[Kalen Braley]

George fair enough, I agree with all of that.


I was really just trying to convey the rankings adjust for PGA tour finishes vs Euro Tour ones vs <insert other tours>, because you have more high quality players to beat out in a 125-150 person field.


So considering the rankings encompass results over the last two years, I think its statistically significant that a player ranked in the top 25 is going to outperform one ranked 60th, even though of course they won't win every time. 


So for a 10 vs 100 scenario, I would guess the better player would win 6-7 of 10 times..


P.S.  I looked up NCAA records going back to 1985.  6s win vs 11s 64% of the time, 7s beat 10s 61% of the time.  I'd say that's interesting enough to want to hedge my bets in that direction.

[Mark Pearce]

Kalen,


No-one is saying the Euro Tour is a strong as the US Tour.  What some of us are saying is that the way the OWGR works exaggerates that difference.

[Thomas Dai]

Forget rankings and all that.
Look at it from the perspective of the opposition team......which 12 players would you most hate to play against? Some of the obvious names ranking wise might not make the 12.
Atb

[Kalen Braley]

In other news, Finau has been picked as the final selection for the US team...


https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/2018-ryder-cup-picks-tony-finau-rounds-out-u-s-team-as-jim-furyks-final-selection/

[Jon Wiggett]

With the top three US players slipping down the rankings this week and the dominance of the Europeans in the top 7 can anyone see anything but a win for Europe

[Kalen Braley]

With the top three US players slipping down the rankings this week and the dominance of the Europeans in the top 7 can anyone see anything but a win for Europe

Jon,


I love the smell of a wager in the morning...to go along with my coffee aroma..

[George Pazin]

In other news, Finau has been picked as the final selection for the US team...


https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/2018-ryder-cup-picks-tony-finau-rounds-out-u-s-team-as-jim-furyks-final-selection/

Woo hoo! I’m a happy guy.

[Phil McDade]

Still I’m not going to call a Ryder Cup in advance. We’ll see.

Wise words. Another wise poster on here has related that, in 18 hole matchplay between tour pros, almost anything can and will happen. Golfers like Sergio and Poulter are completely different players in the Ryder Cup.


I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY hoping the last American pick is Tony Finau. I found out a few years ago that he is the nephew one of my long time clients, and I've followed his career closely ever since. His family that I know are, quite simply, the nicest people I have ever had the pleasure of working with and for. He's a top 10 machine, and I think he's going to put up some big wins in the not too distant future.

Agreed! (Who said George and I can't agree here on GCA )


Among other attributes, Finau is a birdie machine -- 11th on tour in birdies per round. Dude can go low, one reason he'd make a great four-ball partner, maybe paired with a vet like Mickelson who can also score birdies in bunches.

Looks like a Euro afternoon sweep -- this after Furyk benches Koepka and Finau following their four-birdies-down-the-stretch win in the morning session.


I know Sergio gets his share of grief -- on this board and elsewhere -- but the guy is a mensch when it comes to this competition. Playing for Euro since 1999, his 9th team this year, and goes out to grab another win today. He's now got 23.5 points in his Ryder Cup career -- not many players, ever, have had that kind of success at the RC.