[Jeff Schley]

I'm sure other have seen this on GD, but what do we think as to their top 10 of Tillie's best?

1. WF West
2. SF GC
3. Bethpage
4. Baltursol Low
5. Baltursol Up
6. WF East
7. Somerset Hills
8. Quaker Ridge
9. Ridgewood
10. Philadelphia Cricket Club

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-best-aw-tillinghast-golf-courses

My impression is that Quaker Ridge should be higher, possibly up to 6.  Fenway would be my next to include, although it is a pretty stout lineup to crack! Behind Mackenzie, Tillinghast is my favorite classic designer.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

hmm for some reason the guy who has had the same hammer for fifty years that only needed two replacement heads and three new handles comes to mind


Most, if not all these have been renovated/restored/tweaked over the years by others and maintenance also can take it's toll, so how much Tilinghast is actually left bar maybe the routing?


That's not to dismiss any of them, as they are all fantastic courses it's just there may not be a lot of original Tillinghast left.

[Michael George]

Somerset Hills is the best Tilly that I have played and it isn't that close.  Lot of good courses, but Somerset Hills is special.  Fun, unique golf with one of the great back 9s in golf (which doesn't even include the amazing 2nd and 7th holes).

I have played, Somerset Hills, WFW, WFE, Baltusrol Upper, Baltusrol Lower, Fenway, San Francisco GC and Lakewood. 

Need to play Baltimore CC and Phily Cricket as I heard their restorations by Keith Foster were incredible.

[Brian Finn]

Most, if not all these have been renovated/restored/tweaked over the years by others and maintenance also can take it's toll, so how much Tilinghast is actually left bar maybe the routing?

Would you say this is more the case for Tillinghast courses than other golden age designers? 

[Tom_Doak]

Most, if not all these have been renovated/restored/tweaked over the years by others and maintenance also can take it's toll, so how much Tilinghast is actually left bar maybe the routing?

That's not to dismiss any of them, as they are all fantastic courses it's just there may not be a lot of original Tillinghast left.

The two I've worked on, Somerset Hills and SFGC, are still close.


The greens at Somerset have never been rebuilt or edited, although the 10th was moved many years ago.


And when we did the resurfacing at SFGC years ago, mostly we just took off topdressing buildup to get back down to the original surfaces.  We did make some changes at the 2nd and 8th, and had to restore the 15th which had been destroyed by the highway overpass project in 1949; but there is a lot of Tillinghast left, compared to some of the rest that are busy changing contours.


When we rebuilt the bunkers at SFGC we just dug down until we hit the native sand in the floors.  As far as I could tell, Tillie just used the native soil as the bunker sand when he built the course; today there is four inches of "bunker sand" on top.

[Jim Franklin]

Baltimore needs to be higher. SFGC is my favorite Tillie followed by Somerset, BCC, Quaker Ridge, Winged Foot West, East, Bethpage Black, Philly Cricket, Baltusrol Upper, Baltusrol Lower, Ridgewood.

[corey miller]

Certainly not my favorite top 10 list from a golden age designer.

[Michael George]

Baltimore needs to be higher. SFGC is my favorite Tillie followed by Somerset, BCC, Quaker Ridge, Winged Foot West, East, Bethpage Black, Philly Cricket, Baltusrol Upper, Baltusrol Lower, Ridgewood.

Jim - SFGC's finishing holes don't stand up to Somerset Hills.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim - SFGC's finishing holes don't stand up to Somerset Hills.

?  That's the first time I've seen anyone use the 17th and 18th at Somerset Hills as a reason to praise the course.

[Eric LeFante]

Jim - SFGC's finishing holes don't stand up to Somerset Hills.

?  That's the first time I've seen anyone use the 17th and 18th at Somerset Hills as a reason to praise the course.

The knock on Somerset is 17 and 18 are weak finishing holes with wedges in on both. The club actually reversed the nines for a few years in the 90s because 7, 8, are very difficult holes and 9 is a par 5. I'm happy the holes are back to their original configuration.


I didn't love the 17th hole at first but it is a fantastic match play hole. You can lay back off the tee with less than driver and have a full wedge into the hole. You need to hit an exacting shot though because the fairway is severely sloped left to right and a less than well struck shot will either run into nasty bunkers on the right or not catch the downslope a leave a long second shot in. Even if you hit a good tee shot you still may have an awkward lie.


The tee shot is very inviting to hit driver and get within 50 yards of the green. It's difficult to hit driver in the fairway with the slope of the fairway and even if successful, it leaves a very delicate pitch shot uphill from a tight lie. I think it's a fascinating hole if you are 1 down and your opponent just hit a perfect drive all the way down the hill.


18 doesn't play nearly as long as it did in Tillinghast's day and is a driver and a wedge. The green is incredibly deceiving though and is a very difficult two putt with a match on the line and a few spectators on the terrace.



It's not a stern finish like Winged Foot West but they are both interesting holes that will bite you if you play some loose shots.

[Kyle Harris]

A timely thread for me since a recent conversation with my boss about Tillinghast's body of work took an interesting direction when I struggled to actually pinpoint courses of significance beyond this list that Tillinghast did which were worth seeing. As the point has already been made, much of the list has significantly been worked over for one reason or the other.


My favorite Tillinghast courses are well off the list, and almost always amalgamated with other architect's work or are total quirkfests that tip out around 6400 yards.


Anybody ever actually hear of Valley CC, Wyoming Valley CC, the Tillinghast holes at Galen Hall, or Irem Temple? That, for me, is the exemplar of Tillinghast's work.

I've not seen much of his "bigger" work, such as Baltusrol or Winged Foot. But did the "man-sized" behemoths tend to fall into some sort of formulaic approach? I feel like the uniqueness of his work (and perhaps this is true for all architects) are in the smaller, shorter courses.

[Michael George]

Tom:

Was speaking of more than just 17 and 18.  I think the stretch from 15-17 is a wonderful stretch of interesting golf.  In addition, I really prefer interesting golf over difficult golf.  One of my biggest complaints in the rankings is that difficult often gets too much weight.  Somerset is not close to Tilly's most difficult golf course.  However, I would play it time and again over others.

On the merit of 17 and 18.  I would agree with you that 18, while not a bad hole, is probably the worst hole on the back 9.  However, I loved 17.  The drive can be played with a driver getting as far as possible or lesser club and has different issues with each shot. Regardless, both approach shots are very interesting and certainly played over tumbling land.

SFGC is my second favorite Tilly.  I just loved Somerset Hills and thought it is everything that a golf course should be.

[Tom_Doak]

I've not seen much of his "bigger" work, such as Baltusrol or Winged Foot. But did the "man-sized" behemoths tend to fall into some sort of formulaic approach? I feel like the uniqueness of his work (and perhaps this is true for all architects) are in the smaller, shorter courses.

I've just always assumed that his "bigger" courses were later in his career when he got very busy.  He tried to supervise the construction himself, but he must have been spread very thin in the early 1920's.


Somerset Hills and SFGC are some of his earlier work.  I think Shawnee, his first course, was probably very interesting in its original form.  When were your lesser-known favorites built?

[Jerry Kluger]

I have been fortunate to play quite a few of Tilly's courses and I have yet to play one which I could describe as anything other than really good.  I do have preferences but I would easily go well out of my way to play all of them.  I have often found it amusing that people in the Washington/Baltimore area who play Baltimore CC for the first time never realized what a great course it is - probably the best in the area. The only one that I have always felt was rated higher than it should be is Baltusrol Lower which has a great history as a venue for major championship golf but seemed to not have as many really interesting holes as the others.

[Kalen Braley]

Jerry,


Does that mean you haven't played any Tilly courses you would consider great or exceptional?  Or did you mean to say they were all at a minimum really good?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played all the courses on the list. BCC should be on the list. It is at least as good as Baltusrol Upper. I always wonder how much Baltusrol Lower is RTJ or Tilly. The same for Bethpage. How much really is Tilly? Philly was returned to a great course. Anyone would be proud to have such a portfolio.

[Steve Lapper]

As a long-time fan of AWT, only GD could possibly try to convince anyone that either course at Baltusrol is better than Baltimore CC, or that omitting Fenway as well was warranted. Both Upper and Lower have so very many unmemorable holes that after a while you feel like it's Groundhog Day in Springfield.



What is also evident is that many of the very good, if not wonderful, Tilly designs, including the likes of Brook Hollow, Metropolis, Paramount, Alpine, Sunnehanna, Southward Ho, etc....have likely never have even crossed the lips of any GD Architecture editor.

[MCirba]

Sunnehanna is wonderful with potential to be even better.

[Tom_Doak]

What is also evident is that many of the very good, if not greatest Tilly designs, including the likes of Brook Hollow, Metropolis, Paramount, Alpine, Sunnehanna, Southward Ho, etc....have likely never have even crossed the lips of any GD Architecture editor.

I have only seen the first two of those, and . . . they're okay, but nobody [else] is putting them in the company of the ten listed.  Honestly, I had never really thought about how quickly Tillie's designs fall off in the rankings after his top ten.  Not that the rankings are that important!  I guess I'll have more to say on that topic, tomorrow.

[Bill Brightly]

I think Ridgewood is his best in New Jersey. Better land movement than WF East, West and Baltustrol lower, IMHO. Of the ones I've payed, only Bethpage has more elevation changes. Separate the Open history from that list and I think the order would be quite different.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Most, if not all these have been renovated/restored/tweaked over the years by others and maintenance also can take it's toll, so how much Tilinghast is actually left bar maybe the routing?

Would you say this is more the case for Tillinghast courses than other golden age designers?

It was just some verbalization of some thoughts I've had for a while and it goes for any architect - this just seemed like somewhere to say it.


IMO once the course starts maturing; trees grow, maintenance happens (topdressing can subtly move contours, grass lines moving etc), features getting moved by overzealous do gooders getting lost to history etc all slowly devolve what was left by the original architect. The bones may still be there but is it really what they left/wanted/envisioned?

I'm not saying the slow evolution is a bad thing - all the best courses have evolved that way and it certainly hasn't diminished them. I'm just curious to see how say any old course evolved 10, 50, 100 years from day one.

On a side note, Id say that the evolution I'm describing of a course design/terrain has slowed down in the last 20 years as I think there is more awareness of architecture and better maintenance that minimizes/slows the changes.

Most, if not all these have been renovated/restored/tweaked over the years by others and maintenance also can take it's toll, so how much Tilinghast is actually left bar maybe the routing?

That's not to dismiss any of them, as they are all fantastic courses it's just there may not be a lot of original Tillinghast left.

The two I've worked on, Somerset Hills and SFGC, are still close.


The greens at Somerset have never been rebuilt or edited, although the 10th was moved many years ago.


And when we did the resurfacing at SFGC years ago, mostly we just took off topdressing buildup to get back down to the original surfaces.  We did make some changes at the 2nd and 8th, and had to restore the 15th which had been destroyed by the highway overpass project in 1949; but there is a lot of Tillinghast left, compared to some of the rest that are busy changing contours.


When we rebuilt the bunkers at SFGC we just dug down until we hit the native sand in the floors.  As far as I could tell, Tillie just used the native soil as the bunker sand when he built the course; today there is four inches of "bunker sand" on top.

Tom that helps my answer my thoughts above somewhat but I think it also shows how much evolution of the property can subtly change things.

[Joe Bausch]

Photo albums of some less talked about AWT Pennsylvania courses:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/WyomingValley/index.html

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Irem/index.html

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/FoxHill/index.html

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Valley/index.html

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Sunnehanna/index.html

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Wanango/index.html

[mark chalfant]

Winged Foot East
SFGC
Somerset Hills
Ridgewood
Baltimore


Quaker Ridge
Newport (superb bunkers)
Fenway
Capital City, Florida
Baltusrol  Upper

[Tom_Doak]

Capital City, Florida

That is a cool golf course, though a bit scruffy.


I always forget about it because it's so under the radar and so far out of Tillinghast's normal circles. 

[Niall C]

Having had a quick scan of the photo tours that Joe posted, and knowing very little about Tillie, I'm left wondering what his strengths as an architect were ? Not saying that I didn't like what I saw but neither was I blown away, which is often the case with photos, even some as good as Joe's.

Was it routing, or green complexes or what ? Interested to know.

Niall

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