You guys are stupid #6...Ken Kavanaugh

[T_MacWood]

Why is KK's name never brought up on GCA. Is his work good...fair...poor...interesting or unintersting? What are some of his best designs? Are his designs lacking in some way or is his work brilliant or are we all stupid?

[A_Clay_Man]

The only thing I can surmise about his work is that its infrequent.

I have no idea where a KK course is or where to look? let alone know if he uses enough containment and framing to allow for perfect, photographs and vistas.

My guess is that he doesn't otherwise we would've heard more.

[Craig Van Egmond]

While I'm certain you are just trying to annoy a certain younger brother of Ken, I will attempt to answer your question.

Actually there was a thread about Ken Kavanaugh once upon a time, talked about his new work in Colorado that no one seem to have played yet.

I have played 2 of his courses in Arizona, Longbow and Gold Canyon. Both  are very good courses and well worth playing, in fact Longbow was one of the best bargains in Mesa at one time, may still be. Gold Canyon has some truly amazing holes. He seems very low profile and hasn't done a lot of courses which is why he doesn't get talked about.

Here is a link to an article about Ken:

http://www.golfarizona.com/departments/features/ken-kavanaugh.htm

[T_MacWood]

shivas/craig
What did you like about these courses? And why isn't KK brought up more often on GCA?

[Brad Swanson]

Craig,
   If you are referring to Murphy Creek in Aurora, CO, a few of us actually have played it (I used to have it in my regular rotation until last summers drought made the course nearly unplayable).  The first 12 holes are very good and fun, it loses a bit toward the middle of the incoming 9, but finished well with 17 and 18.  I was recently told by a reliable source that he inherited the routing from another another archie.


Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Doug Wright]

Tom,

I don't think Ken Kavanaugh has been given a pass; he's received as much/little discussion as most other architects with a modest amount of work. I suspect that not that many people have seen his work, for one thing.

Here's what I said earlier this summer about Murphy Creek on a thread about Ken Kavanaugh (this course was AOTD #82--if there was an easy way to paste that in here I would  ):

Ken did Murphy Creek, a new public course in Aurora east of Denver. It's very well done IMO, with a good variety of holes, some excellent bunkering, including bunkering within fairway lines and an excellent short risk reward par 4, the 9th. I think he moved quite a bit of dirt, but not as much as is being moved just outside the course for the inevitable housing development   . The course has suffered mightily the past year due to the drought and water restrictions hereabouts but hopefully will get back to at least average conditionwise by this fall.

 

[T_MacWood]

Doug
I'm not saying he has been given a pass...my point is he is not being given anything. I would disagree about him getting as much attention (or lack of attention) as other architects. The names of Kay, K Dye, Brauer, Hurdzan, Cupp, Mathews, Richardson, Clark, Weed, Smyers, Engh, Stantz, Spahn, Moran and Eckenrode are mentioned much more than KK (and his brother is regualr contributor on GCA). I believe the one thread on KK generated maybe 6 posts...how come? He has been designing golf courses for over 15 years, I'm sure he has more designs than a number of the architects I just listed.

[Doug Wright]

Tom,

Ok, but of the names you mention  Brauer, Richardson, Spahn [sic], Moran and Eckenrode are very regular participants on this site and their work has for the most part been seen by many GCAers, particularly at official or unofficial GCA events such as the recent New Mexico outing (Spann--and also Ken Dye's Paa-Ko Ridge) and Eckenrode at the Barona King's Putter. I sure don't think there has been much more discussion of Hurdzan, Cupp or Weed than of KK, and who are Mathews and Clark? As mentioned above, I just don't think that many participants on this DG have seen KK's work. Maybe I'm wrong--maybe they'll come out of the woodwork and say so on this thread.

Best,  

[T_MacWood]

Bruce Mathews has been the subject of numerous threads...one just last week stating his newest designs is one of the most anticipated designs of the coming year. Tom Clark has had his hand a number of redesigns of classic courses....a favorite subject on GCA.

I would disagree on Hurdzan, his first book was mentioned just today or yesterday. His newest book was mentioned a couple of months ago. His courses in NJ, Mass., Florida, Canada have been the subect of threads/posts.

Brauer, Richardson, Spahn [sic], Moran and Eckenrode...all these architects were mentioned prior to their involvement on GCA...although their involvement has only increased the interest. However none of those architects combined have posted as much as John Kavanaugh....discussing Ken would be a natural.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Let's be honest. you didn't spontaneously come up with this thread in the interest of golf course architecture and its discussions.

This was created and directed at Jaka B for reasons that are obvious.

[Doug Wright]

Tom,

Ok by me--anything's fair game on here. I just don't agree that there's any agenda to discuss or not discuss Ken Kavanaugh on here because of one JakaB. John Kavanaugh is not Ken Kavanaugh. In fact, the way JakaB spouts off on here one would think honest, fair criticism, or even dishonest, unfair criticism, of Ken Kavanaugh's courses would proliferate.  

I suppose Ran could call Ken up and do a feature interview...

Anyway, I've given you my unBIASed view of Murphy Creek above, so I'm outta here...  

[T_MacWood]

Doug
I didn't say there was an agenda...I asked about his work...and I asked why he is rarely discussed on GCA. My point regarding John Kavanaugh is just what you said...he is such an active and outspoken contributor on GCA...it would seem natural his brother's work would become a topic of discussion...by John or other's familiar with his work....but for some reason it has not.

Pat
I'm not sure anyone knows for certain the reasons why anyone us makes a post....or what thread is in the best interest of architecture or not....well, with the exception of baseball or college football threads....perhaps this thread may spark career that makes CB Macdonald look like a piker....you never know.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

Ok, but of the names you mention  Brauer, Richardson, Spahn [sic], Moran and Eckenrode are very regular participants on this site and their work has for the most part been seen by many GCAers, particularly at official or unofficial GCA events such as the recent New Mexico outing (Spann--and also Ken Dye's Paa-Ko Ridge) and Eckenrode at the Barona King's Putter. I sure don't think there has been much more discussion of Hurdzan, Cupp or Weed than of KK, and who are Mathews and Clark? As mentioned above, I just don't think that many participants on this DG have seen KK's work. Maybe I'm wrong--maybe they'll come out of the woodwork and say so on this thread.

Best,  

Tom,

Doug is right.  These architects get mentioned more because they are participants on GCA or they have friends who are.  Bruce Matthews gets more play than KK because more of us have played his work and because several of us are friends.  Ken's friends on GCA choose to keep that relationship private and shame on you for not honoring that!

[George Pazin]

Give me a break. John is free to say whatever he wants but everyone else must respect some unwritten code on anonymity? JK & KK are big boys and can deal accordingly.

Surely Matt Ward has played some of Ken's courses & can comment, or at least give us slope & CR.

[David Wigler]

George,

You totally missed it.  So what if he is nutty as a granola bar.  Many of us love him for it.  Starting a thread on KK is totally fair game and discussing KK's courses is fair game as well.  Mentioning who is related to whom and bringing in others personal lives is way out of bounds (Even more so, if it has been clear from day one that he does not want it).  In my mind, this would be the rough equivalent of starting a thread about Tom Doak getting arrested for drunk driving and then asking if you wanted to add anything since your daughter had been through the same problem (Obviously this example is fictitious, Doak was not arrested and I have no idea if you even have a daughter).  But it is baiting someone on a personal level that has nothing to do with GCA or architecture.

If Tom has issues with someone then discuss them but to out family relationships and bring up personal issues is way out of bounds, acting as a baby and a very sorry think for Tom to do.  And no, I have never played a KK course, so I cannot comment on his architecture.

[JakaB]

I think my brother is a great architect...

[T_MacWood]

David
Get a grip of yourself. How is mentioning John and Ken Kavanaugh’s relation bring up either man’s personal life? Everyone on GCA, who has been on GCA for more than few months knows they are brothers. John has acknowledged it more than once. Just as we all know John and Ran are brothers and Lynn and Geoff Shackelford are father and son. Acknowledging a relationship is not bringing in their personal lives.

I’m not interested in either man’s personal life….there is no place for it on GCA. This is a site devoted to golf architecture and Ken is a architect and John is regular contributor. As far as I’m concerned Ken as architect and John as a contributor are open to all questions relating to the subject matter….do you have a problem with that? Drunk driving and daughters who are drunk drivers…where the hell does that come from?

You said he was as nutty than a granola bar not me. If John K wants to act as nutty as granola bar that’s fine with me…that’s his choice he know what may or may not be the consequences. What does John’s behavior have to do with his brother? Nothing IMO. The only reason it may reflect poorly on his brother (with some), is because John prefers to hide behind an alias…he obviously is afraid it might reflect poorly upon him.

I would disagree with you, when you say that the reason architects like Mathews are mentioned more because they are friends of some contributors. Most of the contributors on this site are not friends of architects and those of us who do have architectural friends I think are often less likely to bring up their work. I think their names come up—good or bad—because of the merits (or lack of merit) of their work.

John
Why do you think he gets little mention on GCA--good or bad?

[David Wigler]

David
Everyone on GCA, who has been on GCA for more than few months knows they are brothers...The only reason it may reflect poorly on his brother (with some), is because John prefers to hide behind an alias…he obviously is afraid it might reflect poorly upon him.

Tom,

If you do not see the problem with the two sentences above, then i cannot help you.  He chooses to use an alias and until this mean spirited thread, I would venture that the vast majority of people had no idea on the relationship.  You decided to start a thread dedicated to it.  If you only wanted info on KK's courses, then there would have been no reason to link JK to it, use his format or anything of the sort.  This entire thread is a cheap shot (Kind of like choking a player in the pile and then only getting suspended because the TV cameras caught it).  On the positive side, no one can accuse you of being part of "Golf Club Access" since you are determined to blow up bridges instead of build them.

[George Pazin]

On the positive side, no one can accuse you of being part of "Golf Club Access" since you are determined to blow up bridges instead of build them.

Spoken like a real fence mender.

Barn -

I'm glad you took off the cheap shot at another poster. I laugh when you make fun of me, but I don't when you make comments that might discourage participation from others.

P.S. Most people might not have even made the connection if others hadn't brought it into the thread.

[T_MacWood]

David
Despite the fact that they are related....the fact that Lynn Shackelford posts under his own name says something about Lynn and says something about Geoff. If he chose to post under LakaS, if would say something entirely different with many. Perhaps that is the reason KK’s work is not discussed on GCA, maybe people are hesitant for some reason because of the alias JakaB, there certainly is no hesitation in discussing Geoff S’s work.

Mean spirited…how so? Asking why an architect is not discussed on GCA is mean spirited? Most of the responses have been positive. Would it be mean spirited if someone made a negative comment? This coming from a guy who regularly makes personal comments about your good friend Art Hills…with all the bombs I’ve lobbed at Rees Jones’ renovation work, I don’t believe I’ve said anything about his person.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

You either don't or won't get it so I'll take once last shot and then quit.  I have no problem with discussing KK's work.  It is that you used this thread to point out a personal relationship!

[HamiltonBHearst]

I would not have become aware of this relationship if you all did not jump down Macwoods throat.  I have not played a ken Kavanaugh design but if he is anything like jakab he may be producing some unique and interesting stuff, and that would be a good thing.

[Evan Fleisher]

I will second Shivas's comments about the one and only KK course I've played...Orchard Valley in Aurora, IL.

Although I cannot comment on any actual architectural merit (as it's been quite a while since I played there), I will say that I do remmeber having a really fun day out there and there seemed to be a variety of styled holes with many playing options to choose from.  The 1st hole, fo that matter, is a shortish par-and-a-half par-4 that let's you "go for it" right off the bat...along with some cross-type-bunkers right in the line of play...I though it was a great start to the round, getting the juices flowing immediately.

I don't know much else about his other courses, and I would certainly love another crack at Orchard Valley sometime to get another looksy at it.  It is very highly regarded around the Chicagoland area...from what I remember.

[David Wigler]

Tom MacWood,

Let's be honest. you didn't spontaneously come up with this thread in the interest of golf course architecture and its discussions.

This was created and directed at Jaka B for reasons that are obvious.

I would not have become aware of this relationship if you all did not jump down Macwoods throat.  I have not played a ken Kavanaugh design but if he is anything like jakab he may be producing some unique and interesting stuff, and that would be a good thing - HamiltonBHearst

I'm confused  .  I thought Tom said this was the same person.  How could Pat have know exactly what Tom was doing and Hamilton not have a clue?

[HamiltonBHearst]

As Mr. Mucci has said "the betting window is open".

I do think another thread about Mr. Kavanaugh would be appropriate.