Could you have designed a better course at Old Head?

[Ben Hollerbach]

We often talk about the setting of a course working in harmony with the design of the course. In the best of cases, the flow of the holes across a piece of property can heighten a design. Where in others, the design of a course is able to overcome it's less than stellar setting. It can be difficult and expensive to change the setting of a course, but when the setting is the star and the routing drags the experience down you have a missed opportunity. Old Head may be the best example of this. There is no denying that the setting around Old Head is anything short of spectacular. It's just so disappointing that the course is nowhere close to the same level.

What is holding the design back? Is the unique setting and land restrictions the largest hurdle to a good design? If given the opportunity to start again, could you design a better course at Old Head?

[Tom_Doak]

Hahaha! to you if you think you can.  I actually tried to do so, when they were interviewing architects back in the day. 


It's not such an easy site.  For starters, it's quite small:  they kept saying they had 130 or 140 acres [see note below], but the first 100+ feet above sea level are unusable, and that sucks up a lot of real estate.  Then, it's solid rock, so shaping cool features around greens is not so easy.  And it's a hell of a hard place to grow grass.


It could have been the world's best nine-hole course, or maybe even 12 holes.  But I'm not surprised it didn't make Ran's new list.


EDIT:  I stand corrected; I just did the area of the golf course via Google Earth, and it came out to 156 acres.  So it should have been better than it is.  But I'll be damned if I know how it could have really been great.

[Ally Mcintosh]

What I’ve learned is that most of the stuff we argue about on this website is the final 10%.


The first 90% is something completely different.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I think the first consideration could have been to make every hole great no matter how few/many holes as Tom suggested.
I would think each existing hole could be improved from what it there - the hole design looks stereotypical - so adding interest.
Having less concern with the scorecard would have also helped - more interesting holes.
Lastly not using any land for infrastructure (clubhouse & maintenance) and keeping a quaint rarely used road to the light house would have helped.
Cheers

[Jeff Schley]

I think the first consideration could have been to make every hole great no matter how few/many holes as Tom suggested.
I would think each existing hole could be improved from what it there - the hole design looks stereotypical - so adding interest.
Having less concern with the scorecard would have also helped - more interesting holes.
Lastly not using any land for infrastructure (clubhouse & maintenance) and keeping a quaint rarely used road to the light house would have helped.
Cheers

Mike I would love to see what you would have come up with at OH.  Like your suggestions and how your mind works.
If the site is built on rock bringing in dirt would be expensive, but maybe necessary.

[Jim Nugent]

Could they have built 12 spectacular, fantastic holes on the peninsula, and 6 more holes on the 'mainland' so to speak?  I suppose golfers would need a lift of some kind, to link the two parts.  Unusual, but then Dismal Red (among others) starts with a ride to the 1st tee. 

[Philippe Binette]

I haven't seen the topo map, nor the course


but on a small windy site:


building a 6500 yards par 70 (instead of a 7100 yards par 72) would have given more latitude... with 5 par 3 and a 2 shorts par 4 of less than 350 yards could help.


if they wanted a "championship" length you can always add 3 - 4 hidden (flattish mown areas) full back tees (sometimes over the back of a green) to obtain a 6800 yards par 70... in firm conditions with 20mph wind, it's hard enough for 99,9999 % of players.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Old Head says they have 220 acres, but I don't see how. My measurements was like Toms and somewhere closer to 145.
 I think Philippe brings up a good point about the course par and length. Old Head seems to have been built for the American customer and getting the course to 7,100 yards and a par 72 was probably a very high criteria in the design process. I wonder if at the time they felt to many people would pass it up if it was in the 6,400 or 6,500 range? Granted with as many pictures as we enjoy today, I think many travelers would be ok playing a shorter length course, when it occupies this setting. My largest gripe with the course is it played very much like an American course, and being over in Ireland that was the last thing I'm looking for.
 Maybe it's possible to "links"up the design to play a bit more local, but I think for such a unique site that a more unique course should live there. I like the idea of using the land for as much as it can give, whether that is a 9 or 12 hole routing, or potentially using some of the mainland to expand the course. I'd almost want to look at the design of the property by thinking how it would have evolved if it was built back in the 1890's rather than the 1990's. The evolution of that course and how the locals solved the expansion problems could have created a fantastically quaint little routing. Maybe something more like Shiskine.

[Paul Jones]

I think part of the problem is the long list of architects involved all wanting to contribute.  I was amazed when I played how long it took the starter to rattle off the entire design team.

[Tom_Doak]

I think part of the problem is the long list of architects involved all wanting to contribute.  I was amazed when I played how long it took the starter to rattle off the entire design team.

Pretty cheeky of them to do that considering most of us were never paid a penny.  I guess they said "contribute" but that really was not my intention    and I doubt it was for most others.

[Jonathan Mallard]

I think part of the problem is the long list of architects involved all wanting to contribute.  I was amazed when I played how long it took the starter to rattle off the entire design team.

We didn't get that part of the spiel.


We did get a good bit on the Stone of Accord.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/22433306@N08/2910271391

[Peter Pallotta]

Well, I suppose that unless you think every architect is always at the top of his game, and never makes a mistake or drinks his own kool-aid or gives into client's wishes too easily or gets starry-eyed thinking of awards instead of greatness, you'd have to say that *someone* could've built a better golf course there. I mean, isn't that always the case, at least potentially, with every course?

PS - Excuse me for using the word 'better', since who's to say what's better or not, eh? Let's say  'more fun'....

[Adam Lawrence]

It seems to me that Old Head is pretty much the dictionary definition of a Doak 0, a course that should never have been built. Notwithstanding the amazing views, the site was clearly not suitable for the construction of an 18 hole course that would live up to the expectation, and the exclusion of the local people from the property, a site of significant cultural importance, seems to me just flat out wrong. Read up on the campaign to Free the Old Head of Kinsale if you haven't already.

[Michael Whitaker]

I think part of the problem is the long list of architects involved all wanting to contribute.  I was amazed when I played how long it took the starter to rattle off the entire design team.

Pretty cheeky of them to do that considering most of us were never paid a penny.  I guess they said "contribute" but that really was not my intention    and I doubt it was for most others.

From the Old Head website:  Fittingly the course was designed and constructed by a unique team, Ron Kirby - former designer at Jack Nicklaus's Golf Design Services, the late Eddie Hackett - former Irish golf professional and golf course designer, the late Dr. Joe Carr - Ireland's most successful international amateur golfer, Paddy Merrigan - Australian course architect and agronomist, Liam Higgins - one of Ireland's best known golf professionals currently on the Seniors Tour and finally, Haulie O'Shea - building contractor.

[Robin_Hiseman]

I think part of the problem is the long list of architects involved all wanting to contribute.  I was amazed when I played how long it took the starter to rattle off the entire design team.

Pretty cheeky of them to do that considering most of us were never paid a penny.  I guess they said "contribute" but that really was not my intention    and I doubt it was for most others.

From the Old Head website:  Fittingly the course was designed and constructed by a unique team, Ron Kirby - former designer at Jack Nicklaus's Golf Design Services, the late Eddie Hackett - former Irish golf professional and golf course designer, the late Dr. Joe Carr - Ireland's most successful international amateur golfer, Paddy Merrigan - Australian course architect and agronomist, Liam Higgins - one of Ireland's best known golf professionals currently on the Seniors Tour and finally, Haulie O'Shea - building contractor.

You really would think that this of all Irish golf clubs would have known that Paddy Merrigan was as Irish as they come.

[Tom_Doak]

From the Old Head website:  Fittingly the course was designed and constructed by a unique team, Ron Kirby - former designer at Jack Nicklaus's Golf Design Services, the late Eddie Hackett - former Irish golf professional and golf course designer, the late Dr. Joe Carr - Ireland's most successful international amateur golfer, Paddy Merrigan - Australian course architect and agronomist, Liam Higgins - one of Ireland's best known golf professionals currently on the Seniors Tour and finally, Haulie O'Shea - building contractor.

Glad to hear they are no longer using my name.  They dropped it on a friend who visited years ago and it may have gotten back to them that I was not happy about it.


I did get to spend a day out there with Joe Carr - so there's that, anyway.

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I played the course a bunch of years ago I felt that I shouldn't like it because it had gotten so much bad press. It wasn't the case. There were some holes I thought, "Maybe they should have done this or that," but I really like the course. If I had been given the raw site, there is no way I am talented enough to even have designed a Doak 3. Architects and preachers have one thing in common, everybody thinks they can do a better job than we do, even if they do not the education required.


The site is so stunning it is difficult to design a course worthy of the scenery.

[Lou_Duran]

Of all the courses in Ireland, Old Head is the one that has been universally recommended to me as a "Must Play".  I know two or three guys who think Royal County Down (my personal favorite) is vastly overrated, that Royal Portrush has several ordinary holes (don't think so), and that Portmarnock is too flat and unattractive (I must have played a different course).   Even without having played OH, I can affirmatively say that NO, I could not have designed a better course.  The numbers (20-30+) speak for themselves.

[James Brown]

It seems to me that Old Head is pretty much the dictionary definition of a Doak 0, a course that should never have been built. Notwithstanding the amazing views, the site was clearly not suitable for the construction of an 18 hole course that would live up to the expectation, and the exclusion of the local people from the property, a site of significant cultural importance, seems to me just flat out wrong. Read up on the campaign to Free the Old Head of Kinsale if you haven't already.

More like a dumb blonde than a zero. 

[Ronald Montesano]

This thread is dangerously close to unabashed, armchair arrogance. Do you really think that the course is that bad? You've all bitched and moaned, but no one has tossed a legitimate alternative to the layout. Until you can do so, prattle on somewhere else.


I've not played the course and have no skin in the game, but if this were the first thread I read, after having GCA recommended to me, it would be my last. I'd laugh at this pompous bunch of pretenders (Doak and other architects exempted) and find better things to do with my time.


However, since I'm me, I don't have better things to do with my time, so you're stuck with me.

[Thomas Dai]

From the Old Head website:  Fittingly the course was designed and constructed by a unique team, Ron Kirby - former designer at Jack Nicklaus's Golf Design Services, the late Eddie Hackett - former Irish golf professional and golf course designer, the late Dr. Joe Carr - Ireland's most successful international amateur golfer, Paddy Merrigan - Australian course architect and agronomist, Liam Higgins - one of Ireland's best known golf professionals currently on the Seniors Tour and finally, Haulie O'Shea - building contractor.



Given how many folks were apparently involved I wonder how matters were organised? Head man, overall routing, ‘names’ only-no actual input, ego/vanity, fingers in pies, “this is my hole, that’s your hole”, “I want to use this irrigation contractor not that one?”........and of course......design and supervision fees!
Just curious.
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

DT,


I don’t think they all worked on the job simultaneously. Tom might know more than me but I guess it was a mish mash of early consultants (in a hope to keep the project Irish) and then Ron Kirby did the lion’s share of the actual detail.


Hackett was essentially called in to every Irish job around that time. Do you know he was even offered Tralee and the new course at Ballybee but advised them to go international? Could have been the same here.

[Sean_A]

It seems to me that Old Head is pretty much the dictionary definition of a Doak 0, a course that should never have been built. Notwithstanding the amazing views, the site was clearly not suitable for the construction of an 18 hole course that would live up to the expectation, and the exclusion of the local people from the property, a site of significant cultural importance, seems to me just flat out wrong. Read up on the campaign to Free the Old Head of Kinsale if you haven't already.

+1...this selection and Trump Aberdeen seem far more appropriateo 0 choices.


Ciao

[David Davis]

What if we put frisbee golf or obstacle in front of "course?" Then I'd say yes.


It's one of the few courses in Ireland I have chosen not to return to. Played at an event there several years ago organized by a very close friend. The connector holes in the middle are strange and kind of boring and there are several very awkward holes around the edges. I will never forget the first time I walked onto the tee of the second hole. My pro-am partner started to cry, she was a 65 year old single hcp lady. She was too scared to stand on the tee so in order to get her to hit I had to stand behind her inbetween her and the cliff and tell her I'd catch her so she wouldn't fall off. Wind was blowing very hard left to right so the feeling was indeed quite strange.


It's worth one visit for the spectacular views.

[Thomas Dai]

I don’t think they all worked on the job simultaneously. Tom might know more than me but I guess it was a mish mash of early consultants (in a hope to keep the project Irish) and then Ron Kirby did the lion’s share of the actual detail.
Hackett was essentially called in to every Irish job around that time. Do you know he was even offered Tralee and the new course at Ballybee but advised them to go international? Could have been the same here.

Thanks Ally.
Interesting about Eddie Hackett and Tralee and Ballyb...
Atb