[Niall C]

Interesting discussion on the criteria for entry onto the list but I’m not sure it should be too prescriptive, in the same way that back in the day the ODG’s came up with various lists of design principles that they eventually came to think of as a guide rather than being set in tablets of stone.

For instance, there may be some clubs that wouldn’t allow me through the gates but that doesn’t stop them from being Custodians of the Game (how about Champions of the game instead ?). Indeed I dare say that some on here would probably argue that should enhance their chances of being on the list !

Anyway Ran, what about Forfar ?! No caddies, no buggies, no rattlesnakes and cheap as chips. A wee gem by James Braid. What’s not to like ?

Niall

[John Kavanaugh]

I like the concept behind the 147. It's about time someone decided to break out of the current mold of listing the most exclusive, the most manicured, the longest and the most ridiculous as somehow to be admired and imitated. I won't restate Ran's qualifiers for this list except to say a walk on a great golf course begs to be repeated. Having grown up playing Prairie Dunes, I understand the issue that kept it off the list, wonderful though it is. Perhaps if the long grass there were more like the gorse in Scotland, where any attempt to find a ball will likely result in blood loss, it might be different! I would encourage Ran's return to Dornoch- it would be interesting to see how it looks today to one who was there when it was a journey to find.

We were advised to play all tall grass as a lateral hazard as apparently many members do as well, due to it being a needle in the haystack and rattlesnakes.  One you want to find the other you don't.  So drop and play on.

This is simply not the case for any member of Prairie Dunes that I have ever met or played along side. You hit a bad shot you pay the price. Oh, the horror!!!


I don't doubt that the staff tells unaccompanied guests to play flop, drop and mop just to keep the pace of play for members at an acceptable rate.

[Mark Bourgeois]

The list is a lovely one and I don’t think there can be much arguing about the GB&I entries. It is clearly somewhat subjective but all the entries are courses that capture the essence of the game.


Clearly I could be subjective too and differ slightly in my opinion (the one add I’d really like to see is Ganton) but that is far from the point.

Going by Ran’s criteria the exclusion of Ganton must be an oversight. (Either that or he hasn’t played it.) To consider otherwise is to do considerable damage to the list’s credibility.

[John Kavanaugh]

Some good has come from this list. I called and verified that Pinehurst #2 has indeed done away with the mandatory caddie requirement. I will return next year.

[Tom_Doak]

Going by Ran’s criteria the exclusion of Ganton must be an oversight. (Either that or he hasn’t played it.) To consider otherwise is to do considerable damage to the list’s credibility.

These are surely not meant to be the only 147 courses that embody the spirit of the game.

[Mark Pearce]

The list is a lovely one and I don’t think there can be much arguing about the GB&I entries. It is clearly somewhat subjective but all the entries are courses that capture the essence of the game.


Clearly I could be subjective too and differ slightly in my opinion (the one add I’d really like to see is Ganton) but that is far from the point.

Going by Ran’s criteria the exclusion of Ganton must be an oversight. (Either that or he hasn’t played it.) To consider otherwise is to do considerable damage to the list’s credibility.

The exclusion of Ganton was surely entirely deliberate, done with the certainty that it would cause you to post again?

[Frank M]

I haven't gone through this whole thread or the "147 Custodians" in detail, but am I the only one who instantly noticed the vast majority are inaccessible by an Average Joe and that the ones that are would generally cost them an arm and a leg to play?

[Tim Gavrich]

I like the list in content and concept, but I'd like to just throw one more out there for the sake of sharing:


Riviera Country Club - "No, not that Riviera - this one's just outside Daytona Beach. No tee times, just one of Florida's pleasantest walks, with greens that are pushed up just enough that you'll shake your head smiling at the fun you're having trying to make birdies."

[David Davis]

Sean,

Please collaborate what happened at Old Minch re: my wife.

A non-golfer, she was so compelled by the relaxed atmosphere and beauty of the place, that she started to … gasp ….  PLAY! After a few mis-fires, she started to nail it too, yes?

I am not saying this was a good turn of events for either the game or me  … but give Old Minch (and Cabot where it happened a few years ago) credit. Like every other course on this list, if someone is lucky to find themselves there, don't be shocked to see interest form.

Best,

Ran

For sure, once she stopped her dancing follow-through, the Mrs was hitting it more pure than us!  I will also confirm that she was compelled to do headstands/cartwheels. 

Ha ha, like this is a surprise to hear... She would of most certinaly been the only one in the group with talent!

[Ira Fishman]

Ran notes in his preface that he did a quick count of courses by architect. Has anyone done a complete count yet?


Ira

[Thomas Dai]

Having gone through all the posts on this thread I went back and read once again Rans opening description. And what a delightful summary of the many elements of golf that some of us posting herein adhere to it is.


I urge all to go back and read it once again - [size=78%]http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/[/size]


Atb

[jeffwarne]

There's one (at least) whose design is evidently solely responsible  for inclusion in the 147

[Jon Wiggett]

I haven't gone through this whole thread or the "147 Custodians" in detail, but am I the only one who instantly noticed the vast majority are inaccessible by an Average Joe and that the ones that are would generally cost them an arm and a leg to play?

If this is what we all consider to by "Custodians of the Game" I'm quite saddened.
I noticed Sleepy Hollow's considered a "custodian"...I might agree if we were talking Cleveland. I'm pretty sure that not the case.

The 147 is an interesting idea but always going to lead to certain disagreements. I agree with you Frank in that any super exclusive club (many of the top US clubs) are not access friendly nor affordable to the average player.


Jon

[Sean_A]

I went loosely through the list, its about 2/3 easy access though a significant percentage of these courses are very expensive to play.  However, I can fully understand that part of being a custodian of golf is protecting the best and/or unique places to play the game and it so happens that a great many of the best courses are difficult to access and expensive...so be it.  I can't quibble much about the 52 courses on the list I played. I know Ran is very focused on architecture so that to a large degree "explains" his list. However, just as happened with Doak (imo anyway), I sense an expanding idea of what is good architecture and what is good golf. Maybe, just maybe, Ran is starting to think the joy of the game is just as important as architecture...well I hope so.  I often feel that folks look a bit deeper for good architecture if a feel good connection is made with the course and the experience of the day. That is to say, there is a load of good architecture out there for which the small clubs are the custodians.  Let us hope that in time the 147 Custodians shines a brighter light on these unsung custodians just as Doak included many more quality lesser knowns in his recent CG editions.

Ciao 

[Jon Wiggett]

Surely good GCA is all about if players enjoy playing the course regardless of where they derive their enjoyment from. A good building is not just about being functional but as much to do with the pleasure it's occupants get out of it. The same is with a golf course.


Jon

[Tom_Doak]

Surely good GCA is all about if players enjoy playing the course regardless of where they derive their enjoyment from. A good building is not just about being functional but as much to do with the pleasure it's occupants get out of it. The same is with a golf course.

Agreed.  But for ages there has been a subset of vocal golfers who have insisted the overriding point of a golf course was to TEST the player FAIRLY in all aspects of his game.  To even suggest this was not the most important thing is considered heresy by many.  I suspect it's the main reason I've always been considered controversial ... because that's the underlying criticism behind most of the reviews that people react to.

[Ronald Montesano]

corroborate


on another note, where is that Wild Horse listing? Seems it would fit all characteristics of this list.


I like the list. I can appreciate a course without playing it. I encourage folks to build vacations around Curtis Cups, Walker Cups, and every tournament other than the US Open. Great access to courses on the list, without having to pay green fees or grovel for an invitation.

[James Boon]

Best summary is Brora:  “When people dream of playing golf in Scotland, this is what they are thinking of, even if they don’t know it.“


Pure wisdom.

I too love this description of Brora!

Thanks for the list Ran, which as with any such list generates interesting discussions.

Its also a real delight to see my home course Notts so high on this list at 32 and in such company. Many thanks!

Cheers,

James

[Ran Morrissett]

The amount of correspondence and phone calls that I have received in the first week since posting the 147 is such that I have determined that when people say they hate lists, what they really mean is that they find lists of hard, boring courses worthless. Nothing GolfClubAtlas has done in twenty years has so quickly galvanized support and brought good cheer. NOTHING.

Some points from week one:

• My favorite response was from a friend in New York that said, ‘Ran, should you ever elect to do a book on famous mountain treks, please include Mt. Everest and K2, even though they are expensive to do.’ Boom!
• Another person said, Watch how quickly writers shift and copy the spirit of your message.
• Why a particular course didn’t make it is obvious; there was only room for 147 courses so not everyone’s favorite could be included (especially mine, some ~30 other courses appeared on it during its four month creation).
• Despite James Braid already being well represented, the fact that two people demanded to know where Perranporth was is encouraging. Answer: I haven't seen it!
• Regarding Ganton, I am not sure if it or Delamere Forest exudes more variety. They are for a later edition, perhaps, but where there is tweed, there is Ran. 
• Interestingly enough, the several architects that have responded got that the preamble was more important than the list.
• One man wanted to know who helped: I responded I knew I could trust their insight because none wanted recognition.
• Another who clearly gets the spirit of ‘inclusive golf’ sent me a link on the most dog friendly courses in the United Kingdom.
• I received an incredible amount of input for future updates: one course suffers from ‘weedy grass’ and shouldn’t have been included as it represents plop-plop golf, I received the finest description of Ballybunion’s evolution that I have ever read, and a slew of other, up-to-the-moment feedback. THANK YOU - please keep sending it.
• Apparently, an error was made by me in including an American club that features a rigorous caddie policy; it will be removed this year and I will so note when it happens and what replaced it.

Bottom line: the message delivered wasn’t nearly as incendiary as a few people warned it might be, which means there is hope for commonsense to prevail - and for the sport to flourish.

Best,

[Peter Pallotta]

See what happens when you go with your heart instead of your head?  Someone (though not me) might suggest you should've been doing cartwheels a long time ago! 
Peter

[Bob Montle]

You made a great list, Ran.   I appreciate all the work you did to make this list.
You have given me reasons to travel more in my declining years.   Glad you included Fraserburgh!
Thank you for publishing this.

[Bob Montle]

Best summary is Brora:  “When people dream of playing golf in Scotland, this is what they are thinking of, even if they don’t know it.“


[/color]Pure wisdom.

Ran is a poet.

Either that, or he has a poet's heart.

Or both!

[DFarron]

Love it....what golf is supposed to be all about. A little disappointed there was no Pasatiempo.......

[Thomas Dai]

Interestingly enough, the several architects that have responded got that the preamble was more important than the list.

Just what I was attempting to get at in post 85. In fact the preamble would be great even if there were no following list. And Perranporth is yet to be visited!
atb

[Niall C]

Bottom line: the message delivered wasn’t nearly as incendiary as a few people warned it might be, which means there is hope for commonsense to prevail - and for the sport to flourish.

I was genuinely quite surprised to read this. I'm amazed how anything on a website for a relatively small bunch of enthusiasts could generate any kind of heat, particularly for something that is well meaning and to my mind so inoffensive. What am I missing ?

Niall

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