Fairway Bunkers For Mediocre Golfers

« **Reply #25 on:** August 26, 2018, 01:55:09 PM »

Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on August 25, 2018, 09:36:27 PM

Sean,

Hey, "good design" is a matter of opinion and relative importance of various issues. RTJ and Wilson thought their designs were perfect and beyond question because of their perspective of trying to design tournament courses. Doak's is in trying to be different. The typical course owner is in trying to stay afloat. IMHO, any of those viewpoints can and should be discussed here. Sorry if I offended the tree house by mentioning that the perspective here hasn't changed one iota in the 20 years I have been on it, but not sorry to offer a different perspective.

On the other hand, I recall the best defense every offered for bunkers at all distances. My old boss was presenting a master plan, laden with bunkers at 240 yards (this was the late 70's) explaining that "other distances don't come into play." An older member stood up and said, "I pay just as much dues as the club champ. Don't I deserve to hit in a few bunkers, too?"

Jeff

My perspective hasn't changed much in the last 20 years mainly because I didn't have much of an opinion prior to that. I don't worry too much about my opinion being one that isn't affordable because I am a strong minimalist where bunkers are concerned. Generally speaking, I am not in favour of layered bunkers which can quickly add up to 60, 80 or sometimes 100+ bunkers. Archies should be better at their jobs in creating interest. It is important to remember that for good players, maybe 30-50% of bunkers are truly in play for them on any given day. So for courses I think could be well bunkered that means maybe 20-25 bunkers are in play...probably less than half of which will be fairway bunkers. To me this still sounds like plenty especially if they are well placed. Once we start adding more sand to toughen the challenge, what really happens is the challenge rises exponentially for average players while only rising a relatively small percentage for good golfers. The truth is there are no real solutions to challenge a tour player and a 20 marker on the same course in anything like an equal measure. Either the 20 marker steps up or he doesn't. Its up to these folks to figure out the combo of challenge, interest and fun which best suits them. All I will say is I think the market should be looking more toward the 20 marker market than the very good player market or else huge footprint courses with 6 sets of tees and cartpaths everywhere will continue. I am hoping golf turns smaller in the future even if it means 18 holes isn't held as a sacred cow. The signs are encouraging...now we need more women to get involved in course development. I am convinced if this were to happen then more appropriate courses would be built.

Ciao

« **Reply #26 on:** August 26, 2018, 01:59:46 PM »

Jim C:

There was a lot to unpack in your response to me so I'm going to respond to individual points below.

Quote from: Jim_Coleman on August 25, 2018, 08:21:04 PM

Tom: No, I don't like the Jones/Wilson courses with bunkers out 260 on the right and 280 on the left. They are boring and uninspiring. But if you remove all the "other" bunkers, isn't that what you're left with?

But I wouldn't like them any more if there were another set of bunkers at 160 and 180. They would be boring and stupid, which is worse. Nobody's suggesting doing that. My suggestion would be to have some bunkers at 280, some at 240, and some even at 180, so that everyone's got a few bunkers to avoid, but it doesn't get repetitive.

I believe that, for the most part, bunkers are there to punish. I think they are there to make the golfer make decisions.

They have the added benefit that they can be beautiful and visually intimidating.

I also believe that a great course cannot be great unless it challenges good players. I agree, but it is not necessarily true that all courses do or should aspire to be "great". [You should chime in on the Mammoth Dunes thread!] [size=78%] [/size]

By definition, if a course challenges a good player, it will challenge an average player. Lesser players all want to play great courses. But it doesn't follow that lesser players all want to be "challenged" the way good players do. They only want to play the courses they're told are the best, and good players make those decisions. [size=78%]

But I see no point in placing a bunker that only challenges the weak player, unless it happens to be visually inspiring. [/size] I think lesser players want to be engaged, the same way good players do, by features that make them think and execute.

« **Reply #27 on:** August 26, 2018, 02:03:25 PM »

Bunkers are not just a hazard. They are not solely there to punish a bad shot or to guide play away from one side of the fairway.

Bunkers have an aesthetic function also. On a plain hole with few natural features a couple of fairway bunkers can add visual interest where there is none.

Often a natural feature such as a bank can be enhanced visually with the addition of sand even if it is unlikely ever to be visited.

Some of my favourite "fairway" bunkers are those that look like they are by the green but turn out to be 100 yards short of it when you actually get there.

Golf is in the entertainment industry. Golf holes have to look good as well as having great playing strategy.

I would far rather that bunkers were used judiciously to dress a hole than trees planted!

« **Reply #28 on:** August 26, 2018, 03:09:58 PM »

Re reading Darwin on his visit to Pine Valley, when he asked a member-rabbit if the older-weaker-member-rabbits got tired of or complained about such a difficult test of golf. 'Not at all! If they usually score 125 they are thrilled to score 119!'
Which is to say: all this talk distills down to golfers' expectations -- and clearly those have changed dramatically over the years, and permanently.
P

« **Reply #29 on:** August 26, 2018, 03:25:58 PM »

Had a similar discussion with Jim Urbina in 2013 when I asked him why he was putting a bunker ina certain spot that was irrelevant (for me)."

He says,"There is a bunker out there for everyone, Ian. Perhaps this one is not for you...today."

« **Reply #30 on:** August 26, 2018, 07:11:50 PM »

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