A Mammoth Question

[Tom_Doak]

I have not played Mammoth Dunes, but many of the comments on this string seem to contradict many praised aspects of playing the Old Course at St. Andrews.  In modern terms, the same has been said about Old Macdonald.

No one with a brain has ever said the angle of approach doesn't matter at The Old Course.


Some have tried to say that about Old Macdonald, but I believe they're mistaken.  There is a lot going on in those greens, too, and there are a lot of hole locations more easily approached from one side of the fairway than the other.  At least, I can say that's what we were trying for.


The missing piece in this discussion is whether David Kidd was trying for that or not.  I have seen a couple of interviews with him about the course and about his new emphasis on fun, and I do not recall him saying that he is trying to reward position off the tee, though I could have missed it.


So, I ask:  if he is NOT TRYING to reward position off the tee at all, are the fans of Mammoth Dunes okay with that?  I suspect not, as Ian M tried hard to describe a strategic value to driving left or right that most of the rest of us are not seeing.

[James Brown]

Width doesn’t make a course strategic on its own, but it might make a course fun.  TOC is by no means so wide that average golfers don’t have problems with accuracy.  It might be too wide for the best players to be challenged by the angles unless it is really firm.


All of this discussion IS increasing my interest in Sand Valley. 

[Kyle Harris]

I think it is necessary to avoid normative conclusions on Mammoth Dunes in this discussion. The quality of the golf is excellent. The demands are simply not stringent.


Mammoth Dunes is the "Sandbox Mode" of golf play, to borrow from gamer parlance - a field on which a golfer can create without economic limitation.


We would all become better golfers with a field as varied as Mammoth Dunes upon which to practice regularly.

[Peter Pallotta]

An honest question, Kyle, not a smart-ass one -- and looking for your own/personal answer to this:


In what way(s) can a course offer 'an excellent quality of golf' while not making 'stringent demands'? 


Because (to paraphrase your opening post) a tension-less game of golf on a course with many open-ended questions and few wrong answers doesn't seem to me to be much of a *game* at all. 






 

[Steve Sayre]

I was lucky to play MD twice in early July.  For a 15 handicap and AARP member in good standing, it was a blast.  I loved the width, the scale of the place generally and the visual excitement of the course.  This thread is interesting because it makes me think, only in retrospect, about the strategic tension, angles, etc. I appreciate the discourse and you guys make some thought provoking points.


But just being out there was pure fun. And you have to see it.

[PCCraig]

Are people saying that Kidd went too far with Mammoth Dunes.  Is it too fun and not demanding enough on the golfer?  Or is it just that it lacks strategic interest?

I think Kidd realized he needed his own niche to help himself get highly competitive jobs such as Mammoth Dunes. He came up with the idea that he was going to start building courses that look like the other guy's courses (scraggly bunkers, brown, natural, etc.) but with ultra wide fairways and flat greens where golfers will make lots of birdies. It's not a bad strategy...what developer these days is going to say "I don't want my guests to have too much fun..." but I think people are saying its a bit of a shallow experience?


By most accounts the guests at Sand Valley love Mammoth, which is great. After all, Sand Valley is a resort. And if they can move people around there faster while they have more fun, perhaps that's a win?

[Tim Passalacqua]

I think he is trying to reward proper positioning of the tee.


#1 - You have to carry the sand dune to get to the right 1/3 or 1/2 fairway on top of the hill with a perfect look to the green......left is partially blind.


#2 - Left is shorter with a blind approach and right gives you a clear view......you pick. 


#3 - The closer you hit it down the left near the waste area, the easier your 2nd shot will be going for the green in 2.....shorter and the cross bunker isn't staring you in the face.


#5 - Right side by the fairway bunker gives you a perfect look......left leaves you a blind shot over a 30 ft. dune.


#6 - Left pin, hit it down the left to get your angle......right pin, you have to lay up with a 220 yard shot down the right side by the waste area for a nice, clear wedge (no interference from the center mound).


#7 - If you bail left with your tee shot, you can run into the fairway bunker down the hill (as my friend did)....if you make the stronger carry up the right side, your drive is safe and you can hit the green in 2.


I could keep going, but I have to go.  I just think there is more going on out there than it might get credit for. 

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:


When I last visited Sand Valley only the first two and last four holes at Mammoth Dunes were open for play, and I know that is the gentlest part of the ground.


I agree with your descriptions of the first two holes, but the reward for a different drive is mostly just a better view.  The approaches from Position B are still very receptive, as Kyle described earlier.  Maybe for a 15-handicap the more intimidating look makes a difference.

[Kyle Harris]

Peter Pallotta,


The "Sandbox Mode" analogy is key to understanding my point, and it's a term borrowed from gaming. In construction and simulation games there is often an economic model which forces a management aspect to a simulation game such as Sim City or any of the Tycoon type games. For some, this management aspect is a key component to enjoyment but often times just as much, if not more, fun can be had by turning the game to "sandbox mode" and eliminating the economic component. You are free to build and design as you choose.


In that capacity, Mammoth Dunes shines. You can attempt to score however your ability allows and perhaps do some things with golf shots not otherwise permissible elsewhere. That is absolutely fun but perhaps not necessarily an indicator of ability.

[Michael George]

Question:

Is there a handicap above which the strategy really doesn't matter anymore to the golfer?

For instance, if you are a 20 handicap and don't typically reach greens in regulation, does the strategy intended by the architect matter?  If so, maybe Mammoth Dunes was designed for that guy.  Mike Keiser always talks about the retail golfer.  Maybe Kidd and Keiser went a step further and built a course for the below average retail golfer, which is a large number of golfers..........certainly more than the scratch golfers.

[Kalen Braley]

Michael,


That makes a lot of sense.  The average golfer is far closer to 20 than a single digit.  Perhaps SV is the everyman's resort destination...literally. Where the goals are having a good time, traveling to a remote locale, and play visualizing stimulating shots... all the while shooting some lower than normal scores.  Seems good to me 

[Kyle Harris]

Startegy absolutely matters for the 20 marker. With them it's about turning 5s into 4s as opposed to 4s into 3s. I think effective courses tickle both.

[Tim Passalacqua]

Michael,


That makes a lot of sense.  The average golfer is far closer to 20 than a single digit.  Perhaps SV is the everyman's resort destination...literally. Where the goals are having a good time, traveling to a remote locale, and play visualizing stimulating shots... all the while shooting some lower than normal scores.  Seems good to me 

Bingo!  I have talked about this with several friends.  Is Mammoth the ultimate resort course?  Travel with a group of buddies to a remote place, the resort is awesome, the course is beautiful and stunning, and then you shoot a great round playing one ball.  There is strategy, bold lines to take, and fun contours around the greens.  I think everybody is happy leaving the resort.  I don't know if the course would lose it's interest if you played it 100 times.  But I don't think you have to worry about that because most of us will only play it a handful of times.

[Morgan Clawson]

I feel like I know Mammoth Dunes pretty well.
I have played it 6+ times since they began allowing limited play.  I walked it several times during construction.  I went to one of the media days and listened to David McLay Kidd talk about the course and I asked him a few questions.  Here’s my thread on the course:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64124.0.html
Here are my thoughts on some of the comments raised in this thread.
1.   Strategic lines of play.
Almost every hole offers different strategic lines of play.  Like most courses, executing the riskier option will provide a benefit. At Mammoth this usually means taking a more aggressive line over, or closer to the sand.  Ian Mackenzie and Tim Passalacqua do a good job of providing examples of the options in their above posts.

Even two of the par 3s (#s 4 and 16) offer an alternative line vs. just going for the pin!

As Ian wrote about the 18th, taking the safer route will usually result in adding yardage to the hole.  Here’s Ian’s quote with me adding a little more info in [ ]:  “On the par 5 18, I hit a crisp tee shot down the right side - the easier side to hit. One of my playing partners who hits it the same as me chose the left side for his shot [a massive bunker runs along the left side for entire length of the hole].  -I had 255 into the green - He had 215…”  So, by taking the safer route away from the sand, Ian incurred a 40 yard “penalty”.  These yardage ”penalties” occur on many of the holes.

On some holes, executing on the optimal line will provide a clearer look at the green. A good example of this is the super wide 5th hole.  From the tee, it looks like you can blast away with minimal repercussions.  This video explains that first impressions can be deceiving: http://www.sandvalleygolfresort.com/mammoth-dunes-5th-hole


2.   The width.
Yes, the course is very wide. This does make the course forgiving, which was definitely one of the architect’s intentions.  Kidd wanted people to be able to find their balls and hopefully not lose any during the round.  If I misdirect a shot on the Sand Valley course, I will often find the ball in a bunker. On Mammoth it may still be in the fairway.  To Kyle’s original point, I can see why this creates less tension for some players.

The topography for the Mammoth Dunes sites is excellent (as is Sand Valley’s).  The terrain rolls up and down nicely with few extreme slopes.  This allowed Mammoth to get very wide in places as there weren’t a lot of undesirable places to avoid.

Mammoth Dunes is definitely a unique course.  We need more of that in golf, not less.

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, the course is very wide. This does make the course forgiving, which was definitely one of the architect’s intentions.  Kidd wanted people to be able to find their balls and hopefully not lose any during the round.  If I misdirect a shot on the Sand Valley course, I will often find the ball in a bunker. On Mammoth it may still be in the fairway.

Just curious, how many balls do you lose on Sand Valley?

[Tom_Doak]

1. On the par 5 18, I hit a crisp tee shot down the right side - the easier side to hit. One of my playing partners who hits it the same as me chose the left side for his shot.


- I had 255 into the green
- He had 215
- We were easily 75 yards apart from each other
- He birdied, I left second shot in right side bunker and made par


You get my point.

Something sounded wrong with this description to me, having measured a lot of holes with a laser -- enough to know that one side of the fairway or another rarely makes much difference in the length of the approach.


Are you familiar with trigonometry?


If your friend is 215 yards away from the green and you are even with him but 80 yards to the right, you would be 229 yards away from the same target.  That's 14 yards further, for being 80 yards off the ideal line.


Now, it's possible that you wouldn't be even with your friend's drive if the hole was a sharp dogleg to the left; or if by staying on the inside line his drive was rewarded with extra roll.  I can't remember either of those being the case on the 18th at Mammoth Dunes.


It's more likely you just didn't hit your ball as solidly off the tee, and that's more than half the difference you were touting.

[Kyle Harris]

The yardage penalty is only a penalty if the target is out of reach because of the distance. I can't think of an example where the additional yardage on the approach was all that critical because of what was happening at the green. On the example 5th hole, both my partner and I were on opposite sides of the fairway and found little difficulty in hitting the putting surface from 200 yards out.


In fact, it was on the 5th hole that I began to lose any sort of fear both off the tee and into the green. Bombs away.

[Daryl David]

In fact, it was on the 5th hole that I began to lose any sort of fear both off the tee and into the green. Bombs away.

No tension on the tee doesn’t seem like golf to me. Seems more like playing a game called “driving range”.

[Kyle Harris]

In fact, it was on the 5th hole that I began to lose any sort of fear both off the tee and into the green. Bombs away.

No tension on the tee doesn’t seem like golf to me. Seems more like playing a game called “driving range”.

Well, there are variances in lie and how one can play a shot in context.


"Sandbox Mode."

[Ian Mackenzie]

1. On the par 5 18, I hit a crisp tee shot down the right side - the easier side to hit. One of my playing partners who hits it the same as me chose the left side for his shot.


- I had 255 into the green
- He had 215
- We were easily 75 yards apart from each other
- He birdied, I left second shot in right side bunker and made par


You get my point.

Something sounded wrong with this description to me, having measured a lot of holes with a laser -- enough to know that one side of the fairway or another rarely makes much difference in the length of the approach.


Are you familiar with trigonometry?


If your friend is 215 yards away from the green and you are even with him but 80 yards to the right, you would be 229 yards away from the same target.  That's 14 yards further, for being 80 yards off the ideal line.


Now, it's possible that you wouldn't be even with your friend's drive if the hole was a sharp dogleg to the left; or if by staying on the inside line his drive was rewarded with extra roll.  I can't remember either of those being the case on the 18th at Mammoth Dunes.


It's more likely you just didn't hit your ball as solidly off the tee, and that's more than half the difference you were touting.

“Touting”...?...not really.
Perhaps making some approximations about yardage, but there was no touting, just trying to share some experiences. Same thing happened on par five 3rd hole.


Will mind my calculations, professor.

[Peter Pallotta]

K - I hope you can trademark 'Sandbox Mode', as it's a handy and helpful term.
But woe unto us scribes, who have spent two decades demonizing 'penal architecture' only to find that we've raised on high not 'strategic architecture' but the 'Sandbox Mode' instead.

[Kyle Harris]

K - I hope you can trademark 'Sandbox Mode', as it's a handy and helpful term.
But woe unto us scribes, who have spent two decades demonizing 'penal architecture' only to find that we've raised on high not 'strategic architecture' but the 'Sandbox Mode' instead.

I don't know that it's bad thing - outside of the expense of that much fine turf - so playing an actual Match there could prove quite compelling.

[Garland Bayley]

...

Are you familiar with trigonometry?


If your friend is 215 yards away from the green and you are even with him but 80 yards to the right, you would be 229 yards away from the same target.  That's 14 yards further, for being 80 yards off the ideal line.


Now, it's possible that you wouldn't be even with your friend's drive if the hole was a sharp dogleg to the left; or if by staying on the inside line his drive was rewarded with extra roll.  I can't remember either of those being the case on the 18th at Mammoth Dunes.

...

There you go, confusing people with facts again.

[Morgan Clawson]

Yes, the course is very wide. This does make the course forgiving, which was definitely one of the architect’s intentions.  Kidd wanted people to be able to find their balls and hopefully not lose any during the round.  If I misdirect a shot on the Sand Valley course, I will often find the ball in a bunker. On Mammoth it may still be in the fairway.

Just curious, how many balls do you lose on Sand Valley?

Not many.  It could be a little more difficult in the future, depending on how they maintain the areas off the fairway.

[Edward Glidewell]

Startegy absolutely matters for the 20 marker. With them it's about turning 5s into 4s as opposed to 4s into 3s. I think effective courses tickle both.

I really don't think it does matter that much -- mainly because I think the average 20 marker is a 20 because they don't know where the ball is going. Strategy is mostly irrelevant when you can't hit it within 30 yards of a target. I'm currently a 13.8, and that's still an issue at times (that and the fact my short game is all over the place; great one day and atrocious the next).


I used to be an 18-19, and when I was, I had no clue where my ball was going to end up on any given swing. Sure, I'd still try to aim at a specific point, but it wasn't a significant part of golf because my ball didn't end up there the majority of the time. It was more about just trying to make solid contact than worry about anything else. I still play somewhat regularly with some guys who are probably a 20 or possibly higher (they don't even have handicaps), and they will hit a drive down the middle, followed by one 70 yards right, followed by one 80 yards left. And they are just as wild with a 9 iron (to a lesser extent, but still nowhere near their target on the vast majority of shots).