Total Elevation Change on a Single Course

[MCirba]

I recently played a public golf course in Pennsylvania that had over 300 feet of elevation change throughout the eighteen holes.

Remarkably, most of the front nine is almost dead flat, with the entire elevation change consisting of going from the 9th green to the 14th tee before starting back down.

I attempted to walk this course carrying solo on a humid, 90+ degree day.   I made it to just shy of the 12th green before calling the clubhouse to send a cart rescue as I was getting light-headed.   

Sometimes, when someone says a course is unwalkable I guess that's true.

[Jeff Evagues]

Makalei on the Big Island goes from 1800 feet to 2800 feet.

[Ira Fishman]

I have never been able to find a number, but Kapalua Plantation has to be in the mix.


Now, the undisputed highest elevation course is Mt. Massive in Leadville, CO which is 10,152 feet above sea level.  My sister lives in Leadville so played it once--still could not hit the driver very far.


Ira

[Kalen Braley]

The Canyons course near Park City, UT has 550 feet of elevation differential, including nearly 300 feet on one hole! 

[Tyler Kearns]

Northland CC in Duluth, MN and host of the 2018 Midwest Mashie features 325 feet of elevation change.  The high point is the back tee on #11 at 1,073 feet and the low point is the back tee on #18 at 748 feet.  Most of the ascending and descending happens on holes 2-3 and holes 15-16 respectively.


Tyler

[Matthew Petersen]

Beaver Creek GC in the mountains near Vail, CO starts high up on the mountain, plays down the hill to the bottom of the valley then all the way back up the hill. The first tee is at 7,950 feet and the eighth green (which is the turning point) is at 7,545 so that's 4-5 feet lower.


The course is actually walkable because tees are close to greens, but it does help if you are acclimated to high elevations.

[Tom_Doak]

Pasatiempo has right around 300 feet of elevation change.


I've used that as my standard for a maximum.  Two of my courses, Stone Eagle and Rock Creek, are just over 300 feet.  Stone Eagle is a tougher walk because it goes up and down the same hill multiple times, where Rock Creek is one long loop up to the top and down to the bottom and back to the middle.  But both are still walkable.


I've heard of some crazy stuff overseas on courses that are meant for carts only.


According to Google Earth Kapalua goes from 500 feet at the 16th green down to 74 feet at the 2nd tee.  Their old Village course went even higher - 737 feet at the high point, 91 at the low - but that course has now disappeared.


I do have a course in planning that would drop 300 feet from the 10th tee to the 11th green ... but the finish is down in the valley below, so you wouldn't have to walk back up the hill, only down.

[Wade Whitehead]

When I played Doral (before the renovation), I asked a guy in the pro shop what total elevation change was.  He said twelve feet.  Not sure if that's right or not, but I'll bet there's some course somewhere with less.

A couple of questions:

• What's the great elevation change on a single hole (anywhere)?  Par 3?  4?  5?
• Is there a course where the highest and lowest points on the property are on the same hole?

WW

[Tom_Doak]

When I played Doral (before the renovation), I asked a guy in the pro shop what total elevation change was.  He said twelve feet.  Not sure if that's right or not, but I'll bet there's some course somewhere with less.

A couple of questions:

• What's the great elevation change on a single hole (anywhere)?  Par 3?  4?  5?
• Is there a course where the highest and lowest points on the property are on the same hole?

There are probably plenty of courses with around 10-12 feet of elevation change, but not many with less than that.  You've got to have somewhere for the water to go.


The property for The Rawls Course had THREE feet of elevation change to start with.


I don't know the answers to your other questions.  I doubt anyone has a definitive answer to any of them ... most would be found on awful courses.  On a top-100 course, the most elevation change I can think of is 110 feet, from the 10th tee at Augusta to the low in front of the green, but it's possible there are a couple I'm not thinking of on newer courses.  Going uphill, there are two holes at Pasatiempo that climb 90 feet from tee to green, the 9th and 11th.


Your latter query is possible, if an architect was starting with no elevation change and wanted to maximize the impact of his earthworks; but I don't think you would ever find the natural high and low of rolling property that close together.

[Ira Fishman]

There are two at the Highlands Primland (not top 100 but a very good course) that might qualify.  The 13th is a very long Par 5 that seems all uphill at a steep angle (seems steeper in memory than the two at Pasatiempo).  The 18th is almost the opposite--a long Par 4 that tumbles way down the side of the mountain.


Ira

[Kalen Braley]

I'd nominate the aforementioned Canyons Golf course 10th hole


Par 4 - 433 from the tips.  I've only seen it from the road, but looks a bit like teeing off the top of the nearby ski jump. Advertised net difference is just shy of 300 feet at 297.

[Pete_Pittock]

Sagebrush had a decent elevation shift -low point in the short right side of #5 to the back tier of #12 green.

[Doug Wright]

There are a lot of Colorado mountain and foothill courses with significant elevation changes (e.g both Castle Pines courses) but the most I've seen anywhere is at Sanctuary (Jim Engh), which is near Castle Pines. The first hole itself is massively downhill, and on many holes you ride a cart to a hilltop to play downhill again.

[Edward Glidewell]

The Currahee Club (Jim Fazio) in Toccoa, Georgia has a lot, but I don't know the exact number. The first hole is a massively downhill tee shot and then eventually (I think somewhere early in the back 9) you end up back on a plateau where you can see for miles in all directions.

[Tom_Doak]

There are a lot of Colorado mountain and foothill courses with significant elevation changes (e.g both Castle Pines courses) but the most I've seen anywhere is at Sanctuary (Jim Engh), which is near Castle Pines. The first hole itself is massively downhill, and on many holes you ride a cart to a hilltop to play downhill again.

I have never gone to see Sanctuary, but Google Earth has it at 354 feet from the first tee down to whatever green is the par-5 on the back nine.  #1 tee to #1 green is 250 feet all by itself.

[Kalen Braley]

There are a lot of Colorado mountain and foothill courses with significant elevation changes (e.g both Castle Pines courses) but the most I've seen anywhere is at Sanctuary (Jim Engh), which is near Castle Pines. The first hole itself is massively downhill, and on many holes you ride a cart to a hilltop to play downhill again.

I have never gone to see Sanctuary, but Google Earth has it at 354 feet from the first tee down to whatever green is the par-5 on the back nine.  #1 tee to #1 green is 250 feet all by itself.

I didn't mind the drop shot nature of the tee shot, but the relative narrowness of the landing area combined with being the first tee made for a very intimidating opener...


P.S. I'm surprised its only 354 feet in total, figured it'd be more, but there are many ups and down that would make it a very difficult walk.

[Jon Cavalier]

Nanea is 436 feet from the 3rd to the 16th hole.


I think the 16th at Calusa Pines and possibly the 18th at Bulls Bay have both the high and low points on their respective properties.


I’m surprised to hear that Rock Creek has 300 feet of elevation change. Certainly doesn’t feel like it during play.

[Sean_A]

When folks say elevation change...what does this mean? I take it to mean the ups and downs of the entire course rather than the total of differences between tees and greens.  For example, one hole could go down and up a few times which may measure 100 feet elevation change, but be zero elevation change between tee and green.  To me, calling it zero elevation change is very misleading in terms of the walk. 

I have sort of figured over the years that on average 20 feet of elevation per hole is about the max to stay within ideal parameters assuming the the course starts and finishes at the house.  That said, I appreciate that I am generally not as much a fan of hilly courses as many. TOC remains my perfect site for golf because the undulations offer much of the benefits of hilly terrain without the need for billy-goating.

It would be interesting to know the true elevation change at a place such as Woking which seems ideal compared to Walton Heath which strikes me as a course which could do with more elevation change. 

Ciao

[Jon Cavalier]

When folks say elevation change...what does this mean? I take it to mean the ups and downs of the entire course rather than the total of differences between tees and greens.  For example, one hole could go down and up a few times which may measure 100 feet elevation change, but be zero elevation change between tee and green.  To me, calling it zero elevation change is very misleading in terms of the walk. 

My endurance racing wife tells me that what you’re referring to is called “elevation gain” or “total climb.” I agree that it’s the more relevant measure when it comes to walking a golf course.

[Sean_A]

When folks say elevation change...what does this mean? I take it to mean the ups and downs of the entire course rather than the total of differences between tees and greens.  For example, one hole could go down and up a few times which may measure 100 feet elevation change, but be zero elevation change between tee and green.  To me, calling it zero elevation change is very misleading in terms of the walk. 

My endurance racing wife tells me that what you’re referring to is called “elevation gain” or “total climb.” I agree that it’s the more relevant measure when it comes to walking a golf course.

Jon

Thanks.  I raise the question because of a difference of opinion about Roaring Gap.  Someone Google Earthed the elevation change at something considerably less than half what was measured using fit bit...which is a bit crude.  But when I saw the google total elevation change per hole I knew something was amiss.  The course is far hillier than the indicated  223 feet.  For instance, the 11th gets measured as a -2!  Anyone who has played that hole will know -2 is nothing like a representative number to describe how hilly it is.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:


I agree that "total climb" is a better measure of how difficult a course may be to walk, but it takes a lot of calculation to get to those totals.  The numbers I've cited are just the difference from the high point of the course to the low point.


Jon:


Some of the holes at Rock Creek are less than obvious.  The par-5 3rd, for example, is a steady 3% uphill grade for 560 yards ... which amounts to nearly 60 feet total from tee to green!


The first six holes are all uphill to one degree or another, and then the 18th is significantly uphill after the course bottoms out at the 17th green.  The walk from 8 to 9 is also a tough one.

[Chris_Blakely]

I recently played a public golf course in Pennsylvania that had over 300 feet of elevation change throughout the eighteen holes.

Remarkably, most of the front nine is almost dead flat, with the entire elevation change consisting of going from the 9th green to the 14th tee before starting back down.

I attempted to walk this course carrying solo on a humid, 90+ degree day.   I made it to just shy of the 12th green before calling the clubhouse to send a cart rescue as I was getting light-headed.   

Sometimes, when someone says a course is unwalkable I guess that's true.

What was the course if you don't mind me asking?


Chris

[Craig Sweet]

Rock Creek has got to be substantial.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

What's the name of that crazy course in Hawaii with like a 160 slope from the tips?

[Evan_Green]

When I played Doral (before the renovation), I asked a guy in the pro shop what total elevation change was.  He said twelve feet.  Not sure if that's right or not, but I'll bet there's some course somewhere with less.

A couple of questions:

• What's the great elevation change on a single hole (anywhere)?  Par 3?  4?  5?
• Is there a course where the highest and lowest points on the property are on the same hole?

There are probably plenty of courses with around 10-12 feet of elevation change, but not many with less than that.  You've got to have somewhere for the water to go.


The property for The Rawls Course had THREE feet of elevation change to start with.


I don't know the answers to your other questions.  I doubt anyone has a definitive answer to any of them ... most would be found on awful courses.  On a top-100 course, the most elevation change I can think of is 110 feet, from the 10th tee at Augusta to the low in front of the green, but it's possible there are a couple I'm not thinking of on newer courses.  Going uphill, there are two holes at Pasatiempo that climb 90 feet from tee to green, the 9th and 11th.


Your latter query is possible, if an architect was starting with no elevation change and wanted to maximize the impact of his earthworks; but I don't think you would ever find the natural high and low of rolling property that close together.

Talking Stick North might have had less than 3 feet elevation change at the start