Walking Only Courses in USA - How much does it help or hurt revenue?

[Jeff Schley]

With the advent of several modern designs that are walking only (Ballyneal, Bandon, Sand Valley, etc.) this harkens us back to a time where there were no carts and golf was intended to be a walking game.  Fast forward to the modern era and golf carts became commonplace and all courses existing had to most likely build cart paths or accomodate for them somehow, and of course almost all new designs have them, save a few.

Question that although will have a lot of opinions on why golf has always, should always and will always be a walking game; I'm interested in any data some here may have as to how building a course that DOESN"T allow carts, affect the revenue or demographics of members (Ballyneal for example).

There are reasons some people ride in a cart: old age, disabilities, etc. so this demographic is marginalized somewhat.  There are also those who simply always ride because they are think it is faster, are lazy, think the course is too long or up and down, have cartballer tatooed on their arm, or from the UK where carts are not common at all etc.

So if a course that is public like Sand Valley for example.  What percentage of golfers do you think avoid SV because they can't ride?  From there we can extrapolate the revenue impact.  Or perhaps your theory could be there are enough walkers who love the place as a temple to golf as it was intended that it will not feel an impact and in fact become more popular? 


Who knows with this bunch, but I know this is a polarizing topic for some who are adamant walking golfers.  The question is does it limit your revenue due to exclusion of the above populations?

[Adam Lawrence]

Jeff -- the issue is a little more nuanced. How is SV affected? Well basically not at all, because it is essentially full. They don't have space to accommodate thousands of cart rounds, even if they wanted to.


But you cannot extrapolate anything meaningful from that. It isn't possible to say 'Hey Mr Golf Course GM, Sand Valley is walking only and it's stuffed to the gills, you should go the same way,' because the circumstances are different. At SV, walking is part of the brand. It draws golfers from a very wide area, because they want to experience that kind of golf.


I dare say you could do the same as SV in other areas, if the experience and the marketing was right. But it is in no way comparable to a 'normal' golf course.

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I joined Four Streams is was for all practical purposes a walking course. Carts were allowed only a short time each day. We struggled to get enough members so the time carts were allowed grew until they were allowed anytime.

[Duncan Cheslett]

It is mistaken to think that UK courses don't allow carts and are walking only. The vast majority of UK courses do have carts available for hire - it is just that very few people choose to use them. A typical club fleet will number four or six carts at most; this is generally enough to satisfy the demand from infirm or elderly golfers.


With such light cart use it is not necessary or cost-effective to construct a web of cart paths - such paths are generally only needed on severe slopes or areas of concentrated traffic - for the rest of the course carts can happily be driven on fairways.


Perhaps this halfway house solution could gain traction in the US?  Have a few carts available for members or visitors with a medical certificate and expect the rest to walk. Invest in a hire fleet of electric trolleys for those who jib at carrying.


It works very well over here!

[Edward Glidewell]

It is mistaken to think that UK courses don't allow carts and are walking only. The vast majority of UK courses do have carts available for hire - it is just that very few people choose to use them. A typical club fleet will number four or six carts at most; this is generally enough to satisfy the demand from infirm or elderly golfers.


With such light cart use it is not necessary or cost-effective to construct a web of cart paths - such paths are generally only needed on severe slopes or areas of concentrated traffic - for the rest of the course carts can happily be driven on fairways.


Perhaps this halfway house solution could gain traction in the US?  Have a few carts available for visitors with a medical certificate and expect the rest to walk. Invest in a hire fleet of electric trolleys for those who jib at carrying.


It works very well over here!

That would be very difficult in the US because the majority of courses built in the last 30-40 years (and maybe even longer) weren't built with walking in mind -- a lot of them would be nearly impossible to walk because of the huge distances between greens and tees. It could definitely work at some (especially older) courses, although I think the use of carts is so ingrained in the culture here that it would likely be a significant revenue hit for most.

[Thomas Dai]

Folks with physical limitations also like to play golf and as such the Disability Discrimination Act effects cart usage at courses in the U.K. and clubs are having to become increasing savvy when it comes to all year cart usage.
Atb

[Jim_Kennedy]

You can't get hurt too badly when, as at Sand Valley, the average price for a 4some during the season is ca. $850.00 

[SB]

At a typical public course here in the south, 85- 90% of the people take carts regardless of how walkable it is.

[jeffwarne]

Unfortunately, "walking only" in the US at a private usually means caddie mandatory and all the trappings expense etc. that go with that. Requiring caddies subsidizes those that want them at the expense of those who don't.


Palmetto has a good walking culture as does Southampton-carry, push/pull or cart all common

[mike_beene]

Weather is a huge factor in the south and southwest. When it gets above 95 F almost everyone at my club rides. Fall through Spring is maybe 50-50.

[Wayne_Kozun]

It is kind of hard to discuss whether this hurts or helps revenue since you generally only get two types of walking only courses in NA - very private courses with caddies and “pure” golf resorts like Bandon, SV and Cabot. These are extreme outliers in the gamut of golf courses. Without carts it would be hard to host corporate tournaments and other high end corporate play and that would definitely hurt revenue.

[Mike Sweeney]

Played today with a genuine runner. He ran this morning, and is running a race this weekend in the heat and humidity of Maryland. He carted while my son and I carried and he was roughly right between our ages. He just liked to "ride in a cart for golf".


Golf is nuts!

[Tom_Doak]

I don't think there is any doubt that walking only at a private club means you are writing off 1/2 or more of the potential members ... so it just matters whether there are enough within range to fill up the membership.  It's hard for a club that charges an initiation fee because a 50-year-old guy has to think about whether he will still be happy to walk in 10-15 years or whether he is writing off his initiation that fast.


For public courses it's a short term decision and Adam has it generally right.  However at a place like Forest Dunes where one course is walking only and the other allows carts, it's almost inevitable that the cart course will get more play, because some of those players won't walk The Loop.  Maybe it evens out though if the walkers play The Loop twice and FD once.

[Daryl David]

Something that caught my eye yesterday while I was playing a fairly high rated classic. Teeing off ahead of me was a twosome of “mature” guys pushing trolleys. I say mature as they were both over 90!  The next group was 4 guys in their mid 20s loaded in carts. I thought about it and wondered if the young guys would stop riding and start walking later in life perhaps for health reasons. Then I figured 65 years from now if golf is still around, they will likely be on hover boards floating gently above the fairway. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Perhaps also a factor is the pure economics behind carts.
Resort owners, golf pros and clubs all make decent money renting carts to members and guests.


When you combine monetary incentives with the stated realities of the game discussed above, you can easily understand why cart-balling is a (sad) part of the game.


But, if at also facilitates play for those in need of them, then so be it. May be us one day.

[John Kavanaugh]

Speaking of money, some guys I know walk to save it.

[Peter Pallotta]

Daryl - I've seen the same thing, constantly. Even on a fairly short, walkable course, it is the 'mature' women and men who are walking, and the juniors too; while there's cart after cart full of men in their 20s and 30s and 40s. I've walked all but a handful of rounds in the last 10 years, but I'm not a purist/dictator about it. And yet it really does surprise and confuse me, the young and able bodied choosing to ride. But it must be a definite trend: Last year a friend and I were out (on a fairly pricey country club for a day type course) and a marshall approached us while we were waiting to tee off: she was in her early 50s and looked very fit & professional, and we thought we must've messed up somehow and she was coming to chastise us. Instead, she smiled as she got closer and said: 'Some of us noticed when you checked in that you had carry bags, and earlier in the round I saw you walking and carrying - and I just wanted to say I think that's great! I hardly see it anymore, and it's so good to see people playing the game that way".
Who would've thought?
And if that's the reality out there, no kidding we don't see walking only except at courses (and for golfers) who can well-afford it...

[Duncan Cheslett]

Speaking of money, some guys I know walk to save it.

That too.


I've known many guys who have suffered from heart conditions or dodgy knees etc who resort to playing in a cart because it is the only way that they can get round the course. Pretty soon they tire of paying an extra twenty quid  every time they play golf and either reduce dramatically the amount they play, give up completely or battle round on foot.


Remember, an average club golfer in the UK playing once a week is paying around £20 a round.  Using a cart doubles that!


Sure, you can save on the cost by sharing the cart - but most golfers would rather walk. It is common  to see a fourball of elderly golfers consisting of three pushing electric trolleys and one in a cart.

[Peter Flory]

I think that you have to factor alcohol sales into the analysis as well.  For many, the golf cart is just a rolling drink holder. 

[Tim Martin]

There are far more people that won’t consider playing a golf course without carts than the segment that flocks to a “walking only” course in the U.S. Fortunately there are enough people desirous of the walking experience to keep places like Bandon and Sand Valley sustainable. Carts are a huge driver of revenue regardless of the model whether it’s a CCFD, public, municipal or private.

[Tom_Doak]

There are far more people that won’t consider playing a golf course without carts than the segment that flocks to a “walking only” course in the U.S. Fortunately there are enough people desirous of the walking experience to keep places like Bandon and Sand Valley sustainable. Carts are a huge driver of revenue regardless of the model whether it’s a CCFD, public, municipal or private.

While this is true, it's true mostly because of pricing practices.  The cart actually costs maybe $5 per round to operate; maybe some more if you include the extra wear and tear on the course, or paying for the cart paths.  The rest is profit.


So if you say the course is $40 and the carts are $20 you ascribe all the profit to the carts.  If it was $50 and $10 you'd be making the same but the perception would be different.


Bottom line is nobody pays for a cart and doesn't play, so it's the course not the cart that generates the business.

[Derek_Duncan]

Let's say a nicely routed core public course in an urban/metropolitan area undergoes a good renovation or restoration, and re-opens as a walking only course (a few carts for those with physical needs) -- could it survive without the cart revenue?


I know it depends on location and number of rounds, but I'm asking 1) do you think it could draw enough players, or change the way locals choose to play? And 2) could it be economically viable?

[Cal Seifert]

Let's say a nicely routed core public course in an urban/metropolitan area undergoes a good renovation or restoration, and re-opens as a walking only course (a few carts for those with physical needs) -- could it survive without the cart revenue?


I know it depends on location and number of rounds, but I'm asking 1) do you think it could draw enough players, or change the way locals choose to play? And 2) could it be economically viable?

Sounds like bethpage black. Not sure if its always been walking only but it certainly is now.

[Brian Finn]

Let's say a nicely routed core public course in an urban/metropolitan area undergoes a good renovation or restoration, and re-opens as a walking only course (a few carts for those with physical needs) -- could it survive without the cart revenue?

I know it depends on location and number of rounds, but I'm asking 1) do you think it could draw enough players, or change the way locals choose to play? And 2) could it be economically viable?

Sounds like bethpage black. Not sure if its always been walking only but it certainly is now.

Bethpage Black has always been walking only.  The Green course only recently (5 years ago?) started allowing carts.  Neither course is really well set-up for cart play.

[Cliff Hamm]

I don't believe BB allows carts even for the disabled. Have never understood this as it appears as a clear violation of ADA.  If carts cannot access every spot on a golf course that is OK.  For example if there is a tee that is not accessible, the disabled can play a different tee.  But they can play!!


Separately if a course did not allow carts are the dedicated walkers willing to pay $15 or so more?