USGA limiting green books. What about yardage books?

[JESII]

Small thing - quick action - kudos to the ruling bodies.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'd mixed up Hogan stories in my head. According to 'Miracle at Merion' (about Hogan's 1950 US Open win), *no one* had yardage books back then, nor did any caddies even pace off distances. It was all by sight and feel. After a couple of practice rounds Mr. Hogan went to Merion's Chair and told him that the course was shorter than the yardage card indicated. Later, apparently, Merion measured and Hogan's eyes were right: it was 200 yards shorter.
But I'm a strangely and increasingly obsessive fan of Mr Hogan, so don't trust me. I recently got rid of every used set of clubs I'd ever scrounged up so that the *only* irons I have left are all Hogans: the '99 Apex mbs, the original Edge-Forged, the PCs, the Apex Grinds, and the black sheep of the family, the Producers. Save for perhaps the last one, all those irons are so good they actually judge the distances for me, and hurl themselves out of the bag to indicate which club I should use...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Part of the game was working it all out.


May as well play golf in a simulator now.


Get rid of the lot would be best. Some form of compromise I suppose but green books def OUT.

[Sean_A]

If elevation change isn't allowed for yardage books, why would green books be allowed?  Don't they essentially measure elevation change?

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Part of the game was working it all out.


May as well play golf in a simulator now.


Get rid of the lot would be best. Some form of compromise I suppose but green books def OUT.

I agree completely.  Greens should be read by eye and feel only. I'm firmly in the "Fire caddies and let the buggers use an electric trolley" camp.


Golf is an individual sport. Participants should not be allowed to take a coach with them on the course or to use "cheat sheets".

[Thomas Dai]

Part of the game was working it all out.
May as well play golf in a simulator now.
Get rid of the lot would be best. Some form of compromise I suppose but green books def OUT.

I agree completely.  Greens should be read by eye and feel only. I'm firmly in the "Fire caddies and let the buggers use an electric trolley" camp.
Golf is an individual sport. Participants should not be allowed to take a coach with them on the course or to use "cheat sheets".

+1/+2 to both posts above.
Atb

[Brock Peyer]

I'm not sure what to think of this.  I do think that range finders should be legal and believe it will speed up play a little.  It seems the book reading on greens has gotten very intense these days but I know players have been putting some amount of notes in their books in regards to greens as long as their have been yardage books.  Should they ban players from watching the telecast?  Or old reruns on the golf channel?  I think it's a bit hypocritical because next to many greens are scoreboards and they will often show how far a player is from the pin whether it be a pitch or even a putt, granted, does the player look to see that he is 34 feet from the hole, likely not, but that is technically giving them information.  I think the Bryson think with the compass was a bad decision as well.  I forget the exact verbiage of the decision, it was something like using a tool to  read the book and in turn the greens,...aren't glasses a tool, in the broad sense?  Or how about sunglasses that reduce glare?  I am growing more and more frustrated with the USGA.

[JHoulihan]

I am a player who learned the game at age 14 by hitting balls both at my local range and a close friends large pasture behind his house. I hit hundreds if not thousands of balls before playing my first ever 9 holes of golf. This allowed me to learn and build my unique swing and make practice my short game in between range sessions. Once I was playing 9 holes and eventually 18 holes later in highschool and during matches, my focus changed. I now knew my swing better and wanted to know more information. This included both what was the distance to reach the green from the fairway, but more importantly what was the distance to avoid a pond or bunker leading to a blow up hole.

Information then became more readily available not only by yardage books, but digital devices showing you these distances in real time as you walked and played. Numerically nearly ALL amateur players will not hit green targets within 1 yard to push them to make hand written notes into a yardage book, but should it be PENALIZED if done?

The USGA may have good intentions when writing this proposed rule, but it is NOT a good rule and here is why. This proposed rule (like the old rule about being charged a penatly for a ball moving on the green when you have addressed the ball during a putt) has just way too much grey area. If you asked 10 rules officials how to make judgement about a particular players yardage book with hand written notes made, you may get differing opinions. Nearly ALL rules of golf should not be judged based on intent, but instead on actions and results.

If a rule cannot be enforced on a repeated manner by rules officials young and old - I deem it a bad rule!

[Joe Hancock]

Notes should be banned too. Simple.

[Michael Felton]

For what it's worth, I got to play a round with Mark Roe (of scorecard mix up at the 2003 Open fame) at my club back in England. It was February or March I think and the greens were not in good shape. He carried his own bag and didn't have a yardage book or a laser or a GPS or anything like that. Only indication of yardage was a 150 post. He just eyeballed it and he was pin high to within a yard or two all day. If he hit it straight, he had a kick in. If he pulled it or pushed it he had a 20 footer. It was unbelievable to watch. He shot the easiest 66 I've ever seen.


I would be all in favour of having a pro event where they have a 150 post (maybe a 200 post would be more useful in this day and age) and nothing else. I think it would be very interesting to watch. Just enough info that no one is going to be missing by 20 yards, but not so much that the skill of estimating distance wouldn't be important. I bet someone like Bubba would do well. I bet Tiger would too and Joe LaCava would be a busy man the week before.


Mark - next time we play let's try that no looking up yardages. Just guess.

[Niall C]

Michael

As a matter of interest what was the length of Mark Roes longest approach ? I'd imagine he got his drives well down the fairway and maybe was coming in from what was mid iron length for us normal people ? Don't get me wrong I'm all for not using yardage books or gizmo's and even try to walk the walk most of the time (sadly not always), but I'm not hitting a precision shot in from say 240 yards. Given the lengths these guys hit it, is it practical for them to eyeball it ?

Niall

[Mark Fedeli]

Mark - next time we play let's try that no looking up yardages. Just guess.

I'm in! As long as it's one of the courses we regularly play : )


Another question for the crew: when did courses start installing yardage markers, especially the courses the pros might be playing on? and what marking methods did they use in the early days?

[Mike_Young]

I don't like the USGA.  These issues are created to try and help them justify their existence.  The greens reading books are basically just a psychological crutch that a few guys use.  All it is is a "micro" yardage book describing the nuances of a green as a yardage book does turns in a golf hole.  Putting skills have not changed due to these books and speed is is a critical element in how much break a putt has.  They need to just leave it alone and go do something about sanded divots or something if they want to be realistic.OH...If Titleist owned the books instead of a gy who will not have the legal resources, it would not be an issue.  Hopefully one day the PGA will have it's own set of rules and a handicap systems..

[Jeff Schley]

  Hopefully one day the PGA will have it's own set of rules and a handicap systems..

Mike,
Do you see the PGA getting involved in this?  All there members are Professionals and play off scratch in tournaments.

[Mike_Young]

  Hopefully one day the PGA will have it's own set of rules and a handicap systems..

Mike,
Do you see the PGA getting involved in this?  All there members are Professionals and play off scratch in tournaments.

Here's what I see.  The USGA is like a committee at a private club.  They come from various walks and are volunteers with an elitist attitude and a mindset that they control the game in this country without justification.  It's an aloof addition to their "volunteer organization" resume.  They don't make a living at the game but they need the game and the member courses to survive.  However, they don't want the member course to stop and take the time to realize what they really are.  Meanwhile the PGA and the GCSAA are comprised of members who actually work in the game everyday.  Thus they should have a much clearer picture of what is really needed and how to implement it efficiently and practically.  They do their best to get along with the USGA due to how the USGA has always viewed the golf professional.  As we see golf shift to where our parent's private clubs are no longer "cool" with the millennials the remaining millennial golfers will realize the USGA exudes that attitude and will accept something like the PGA.  Of course the USGA will be trying to change itself to fit the new model also.  I'm sorry but I just see the USGA as a parasite that we all give in to but it's not a big enough itch in our daily regime to try and stop. 

[Peter Flory]

I just don't see how they can realistically ban all forms of note taking.  The info in the green books can be duplicated or a similar grid could be constructed by players or their caddies. 


These guys are playing different courses each week and for lots of money.  It makes sense to me that they are trying to get information that will help them play better.  It also makes sense to have centralized due diligence.  This way one party spends 100 hours to get the information instead of 150 parties each spending 100 hours.  Either way, they are going to get the information, one is just more wasteful than the other. 


If notes are banned, then caddies will photographic memories will be in demand. 

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't like the USGA.  These issues are created to try and help them justify their existence.  The greens reading books are basically just a psychological crutch that a few guys use.  All it is is a "micro" yardage book describing the nuances of a green as a yardage book does turns in a golf hole.  Putting skills have not changed due to these books and speed is is a critical element in how much break a putt has.  They need to just leave it alone and go do something about sanded divots or something if they want to be realistic.OH...If Titleist owned the books instead of a gy who will not have the legal resources, it would not be an issue.  Hopefully one day the PGA will have it's own set of rules and a handicap systems..

Bingo!  Thanks for this post, Mike.
On the rare occasions when I watch pro golf other than the majors, I watch to see great players compete and hit great shots.  How they decide what club to use, or how they decide how much break to play on a putt could not be less interesting to me.  Beyond that, I can't imagine why I would be interested in finding out which pros can estimate distance most accurately.  All of this reminds me of a meeting of the Man Will Never Fly Society, or the Flat Earth League.

[Mark Fedeli]

If notes are banned, then caddies will photographic memories will be in demand.

As it should be. And players with photographic memories and excellent study habits should have an advantage. These skills should again factor into the game the very best of the best are playing.


And A.G., I too want to see great players hit great shots. I also want to see them forced to make great decisions. I don't watch that much pro golf anymore either, but seeing who is prepared and who isn't, and seeing the artistry of playing by feel, would certainly make it more entertaining for me. (And would go a little bit of the way toward addressing how boring the distance issue has allowed the pro game to become.)

[A.G._Crockett]

If notes are banned, then caddies will photographic memories will be in demand.

As it should be. And players with photographic memories and excellent study habits should have an advantage. These skills should again factor into the game the very best of the best are playing.


And A.G., I too want to see great players hit great shots. I also want to see them forced to make great decisions. I don't watch that much pro golf anymore either, but seeing who is prepared and who isn't, and seeing the artistry of playing by feel, would certainly make it more entertaining for me. (And would go a little bit of the way toward addressing how boring the distance issue has allowed the pro game to become.)

Mark,With all due respect, I'll disagree with almost all of this.

I see no real connection between the distance issue and either yardage books and greens books.  Yardage books were around before the distance explosion, and any connection is less than indirect. 
I just don't have any interest in making distance estimation a qualifier for determining who is the best golfer.  The idea that a professional golfer is pulling a club based solely on yardage, without regard to wind, slope, pin positions, risk/reward features, etc., is simply not how the game is played, and making club selection more arcane does nothing for me.  I realize you don't feel the same.

But what I really find most odd about this is the presumption that yardage books and putting books are an either/or situation, that pro golfers either have those books or are just guessing.  Go to a pro tournament practice round and watch those guys go to different areas of the greens and hit putts, or decide how to play a hole from the tee; they are ALL preparing HARD for what they do.  That's the only way to get where they are, and it's the only way to stay there.  Having a yardage book instead of wasting time pacing stuff off from a particular tree or bush or a 150 marker or whatever doesn't make it estimation; it just makes it quicker and marginally more precise.
I don't have any more interest in going back to the days of no yardage books, or even putting books, than I do in going back to the days when baseball players didn't have gloves, or there were lots of jump balls in basketball, or there was no soccer-style kicking in football. I don't believe in "the good old days", except on very rare occasions, because the old days weren't that good in the first place.
Sorry...
(PS: I read this latest installment of The Flat Earth Society for a couple of days without posting, and swore to myself that I wouldn't get caught up in yet another crabby old man ventfest on GCA.  And I wouldn't have if Mike Young hadn't written something sensible and 21st Century that I agreed with.  So blame Mike for this; it's all his fault!)

[Mark Fedeli]

A.G., I can accept that we disagree on parts of this, but I think you're misrepresenting my point a bit.


"The idea that a professional golfer is pulling a club based solely on yardage" is not an idea I've come even close to espousing. All the other factors you listed are still true, and I think reintroducing the judging of distance without any aids is perfectly reasonable based on how easily I think the pros could handle it, and how relatively recently they were still doing so.


I also don't see my point as a love of the "good ol days". I'm not talking about denying human advancement, I just don't see knowing one's distance down to the yard as being any great achievement. I see it simply deciding to play the game a different way.


My point about the distance explosion wasn't to draw a line between the two but to introduce more indecision in the pro game to counteract some of the gains they've made in distance. I would find watching this indecision and the consequences of it to be more entertaining than most of what's shown now. "Pacing stuff off from a particular tree or bush" sounds great to me if it means they had to try to memorize the distance of that particular bush on that particular hole and hope they aren't confusing it for a different one.

[Kirk Gill]

Mark, here's an old thread about yardage aids that contains some quality beard-pulling on the issue. Lots of umbrage taken, lots of long-winded pontification (some of it my own). I just enjoyed re-reading it.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33762.0.html

[A.G._Crockett]

Mark, here's an old thread about yardage aids that contains some quality beard-pulling on the issue. Lots of umbrage taken, lots of long-winded pontification (some of it my own). I just enjoyed re-reading it.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33762.0.html

Kirk,That's a great thread, and there are even older ones than that on the subject of rangefinders back when they first came into common usage.  I argued with Tom Huckaby at great length about the issue of pace of play, mistakenly believing that rangefinders would SLOW play; Tom said the opposite, and I later admitted my mistake.  I miss Tom Huckaby, Tom Paul, and a number of others who posted in those days; it was a brighter, more informative, more learned place for discussion, I think.  I'll plead guilty to contributing to the decline.

[Pat Burke]

Couple of things all  IMO
I’m 56, not exactly on the cutting edge anymore, and wasn’t exactly a world beater when I was playing.
1) I worked constantly at
 Being able to control my carry yardages for all my clubs.  It was imperative to know your stock carry yArdage with all your clubs.  Carrying bunkers, Certain slopes or ridges, or knowing eaxactly what was too far before going over on greens was part of planning for every shot I hit.  Even tee shots, carry yardages on different angles, over obstacles etc are hugely important....knowing your carry yardage and trajectory for tee shots is a huge thing
2) there is information for elevations all over the tour books .
3) like them or not, you would appreciate the work that a guy like Mark Long puts in  to provide the most accurate information, Calibrated for different angles for the players.
4) the greens books information is accurate when you are located properly.  Learning to locate your ball is fairly easy with a little practice.  Recently, the hole locations data have gotten very accurate which makes things easier
5) BIB, BIG IMO....Erin Hills was a setup.  Huge wide fairways, incredible length.  Pretty much a defining course for today’s professional game.  Perfect hole location distances were provided, making the greens books even more effective.  They set up an event that can now be an example of ....the ball goes too far no matter how long the course is they shoot ridiculous scores....gave the,space to bomb it, and all the data to take advantage......could be a brilliant evil scientist move


Fwiw the greens book ruling strikes me as similar to the long putter ruling....half assed.
I don’t believe it will change things.....they should have banned all notes and books on and around greens

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If elevation change isn't allowed for yardage books, why would green books be allowed?  Don't they essentially measure elevation change?

Elevation change is allowed in yardage books. Not sure what you mean by that.

To the topic, I'm in favor of banning the green books, but not yardage books. Yardage books have been around for about 50+ years.

Fwiw the greens book ruling strikes me as similar to the long putter ruling....half assed.I don’t believe it will change things.....they should have banned all notes and books on and around greens

The more I think about it, too, I'll extend my "ban green books" to something more like this: ban everything but the shape of the green and denoting a few prominent features like a tier or a bunker or something. Arrows can generally indicate the direction of slope, but that's about it: shape, feature demarcation (with distances), and arrows. Nothing else.

[Kalen Braley]

It seems to me the reasoning behind this was to eliminate information that is not easily deduced.


In a practice round a caddy can easily pace off carry yardage to fairway bunkers or hazards, distance from various points of the fairway to the center of the green, how far bunkers are from green edges, etc, etc.


But ask that caddy to draw a mapped green showing all of the intricate breaks in topo map fashion down to the foot....no way in hell they are getting anything meaningful on paper for even one green... much less all 18.


In my opinion, I suspect this kind of information (relying on outside sources) is what they had in mind to ban...and I agree with it.


It follows the same logic of why they aren't allowed to use wind gauges or apps that show temperature.