Union League Torresdale Redesign

« **on:** July 12, 2018, 12:01:26 AM »

Anyone out there have any info on the work Rees Jones is doing at Torresdale? He was recently hired to complete a master plan and redesign the course. Was wondering what changes will be made and thought the club just finished a renovation a few years ago?

« **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2018, 03:20:10 PM »

I tried to provide info to a decisionmaker that would direct them to accomplished restoration architects.

Unfortunately that failed. T/F may be the best candidate for restoration of any course in Philly. The first requirement as a great candidate is that the original be special. This course should not be renovated but preserved to stand at the top echelon of classic courses in Philly.

« **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2018, 04:02:32 PM »

*
My momma taught me well.

« **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2018, 10:56:23 PM »

Cobbs is being restored.

« **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2018, 11:08:10 PM »

Mike - Do you have any plans or info on what the club decided? I thought when Union League bought Torresdale they did a bunch of restoration work which wasn't too long ago. Wondering if they just weren't happy with what was done or they are looking for something different for the course?

« **Reply #5 on:** July 13, 2018, 07:12:37 AM »

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/union-league/

I am awaiting information from an insider; however, given Jones' history and statements on his website and elsewhere, it's predictable what he'll say about this "redesign" project:

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/golf-course-restoration.php

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/rees-jones-discusses-medinah-no2-restoration-project

There's a lot of different interpretations of the terms " redesign" " restoration" and "renovation" within the community as has been discussed on this Forum many times.

« **Reply #6 on:** July 13, 2018, 08:20:53 AM »

Quote from: mike_malone on July 12, 2018, 10:56:23 PM

Cobbs is being restored.

« **Reply #7 on:** July 13, 2018, 11:45:53 AM »

Quote from: MCirba on July 13, 2018, 08:20:53 AM

Quote from: mike_malone on July 12, 2018, 10:56:23 PM
Cobbs is being restored.

Mike,

I think Mike is really on to something here. Why not Rees?

« **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2018, 11:49:19 AM »

« **Reply #9 on:** July 13, 2018, 12:01:00 PM »

A little birdie tells me part of Rees' work at Torresdale will be a short game area to the right of the current range.

« **Reply #10 on:** July 13, 2018, 03:05:29 PM »

Quote from: Joe Bausch on July 13, 2018, 12:01:00 PM

A little birdie tells me part of Rees' work at Torresdale will be a short game area to the right of the current range.

Funny, lets be honest, Rees doesn't just do short game areas!

In all seriousness I heard earlier the club really wants to host a US Open which is why they are bringing in Rees. I just cant picture where he can lengthen holes? I just don't see the room for it..... Union League is flush with cash so who knows, enough money can find you land and Rees Jones.....

« **Reply #11 on:** July 14, 2018, 06:58:35 AM »

Pretty sure Stephen Kaye did some tweaking when the Union League came on board at Torresdale.

Not sure how extensive and whether it was "restoration" 🤓

« **Reply #12 on:** July 14, 2018, 02:25:32 PM »

Quote from: archie_struthers on July 14, 2018, 06:58:35 AM

Pretty sure Stephen Kaye did some tweaking when the Union League came on board at Torresdale.

Not sure how extensive and whether it was "restoration" 🤓

Found this article - http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/golfers-enjoying-restored-course-at-philadelphias-union-league-golf-club

Appears a 3 million dollar tweaking was already done. Raises more questions than answers as to whats to come....

« **Reply #13 on:** July 14, 2018, 02:32:02 PM »

Today's course is about 80% Donald Ross original design.

It will be interesting to see what that % is after.

« **Reply #14 on:** July 14, 2018, 05:56:02 PM »

Can’t those guys that are involved in the Cobbs project get involved at Torresdale?

« **Reply #15 on:** July 14, 2018, 10:59:56 PM »

I would think that The Union League would value a classic.

« **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2018, 03:04:35 PM »

Quote from: MCirba on July 14, 2018, 02:32:02 PM

Today's course is about 80% Donald Ross original design.

It will be interesting to see what that % is after.

Assuming the club is after changes that will make the course "championship caliber" I am not sure it's possible to remain remotely close to the original design???

It was announced yesterday Oakland Hills is going through a 2 year renovation making the course 7500 yards... What % of that 7500 yard course will be original design?

« **Reply #17 on:** July 15, 2018, 03:46:46 PM »

Ni[size=78%]ck,[/size]

I believe the Oakland Hills restoration is to try to bring the Golf Course back to as much Donald Ross as possible although others may have more details.

Beginning in 1951, Robert Trent Jones made significant changes to the bunkering throughout the golf course and a lot of trees were planted over time. Other architects such as Arthur Hills left their mark.

Thankfully, my understanding is that most of the green complexes have gone untouched through the years so that's a big start for them.

From a philosophical standpoint, I really don't have much problem extending the golf course where possible in terms of length, particularly if the original angles of play can be maintained because to do otherwise would deny the fact that Golf Course technology has really gotten out of the bottle in the last few decades in terms of overall distance and even overall straightness.

« **Reply #18 on:** July 15, 2018, 04:04:35 PM »

Quote from: MCirba on July 15, 2018, 03:46:46 PM

Ni[size=78%]ck,[/size]

I believe the Oakland Hills restoration is to try to bring the Golf Course back to as much Donald Ross as possible although others may have more details.

Beginning in 1951, Robert Trent Jones made significant changes to the bunkering throughout the golf course and a lot of trees were planted over time. Other architects such as Arthur Hills left their mark.

Thankfully, my understanding is that most of the green complexes have gone untouched through the years so that's a big start for them.

From a philosophical standpoint, I really don't have much problem extending the golf course where possible in terms of length, particularly if the original angles of play can be maintained because to do otherwise would deny the fact that Golf Course technology has really gotten out of the bottle in the last few decades in terms of overall distance and even overall straightness.

I agree the technology has gotten out of hand, I believe we will continue to look for ways to lengthen golf courses even further. Tons of talk about solutions but nothing set in stone.

I started this post looking for plans on the "redesign" as that is the classification I have seen so far and that's it. Any insight as to what changes could be made would also be great. Instead lots of short handed comments regarding the designer and questioning of whether or not Union League values a classic.

Why so quick to judge when nothing has been announced yet?

« **Reply #19 on:** July 15, 2018, 04:32:58 PM »

If past is prologue, I think it is the historical track record of the architect, Nick.

« **Reply #20 on:** July 15, 2018, 05:33:53 PM »

Quote from: MCirba on July 15, 2018, 04:32:58 PM

If past is prologue, I think it is the historical track record of the architect, Nick.

Are we talking from 15 years ago? When he was altering classic design to accommodate the US Open because of technology in equipment giving players the ability to walk all over classic design which didnt fit the US Open Tournament? Has he done anything recently, or have you heard anything that makes you believe Union League is asking him to do the same thing to Torresdale? The course at 6600 yards is already hard. I am interested to see what he does to make it championship caliber if that is what they are interested in which is just my assumption.

Why pass judgement without knowing what the Union League has asked him to do?

« **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2018, 10:47:24 AM »

Hi Nick,

My opinion and impressions are based on playing 20 of his original designs and 17 where he did some type of renovation, whether intended to be restoration or revision. In the case of the latter, I think he makes everything look like a Rees Jones course no matter who the original architect, whether by intent or inadvertently.

I really like the Torresdale-Frankford course and think it has great bones. I hope the Union League effort is successful in getting what they want.

« **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2018, 12:19:49 PM »

Quote from: MCirba on July 16, 2018, 10:47:24 AM

Hi Nick,

My opinion and impressions are based on playing 20 of his original designs and 17 where he did some type of renovation, whether intended to be restoration or revision. In the case of the latter, I think he makes everything look like a Rees Jones course no matter who the original architect, whether by intent or inadvertently.

I really like the Torresdale-Frankford course and think it has great bones. I hope the Union League effort is successful in getting what they want.

You have a lot of exposure to his work. From my personal experience, his courses are hard, especially his original designs. One of the first I played was The Currituck Club and I remember foolishly taking on more than I could over a forced carry and putting a bunch of tee shots in the water. I took a 12 on the hole and ended up shooting 78 which would have been one of the best rounds of my life had I been able to par the hole. When it comes to his original designs they are without a doubt hard and not courses I would recommend to beginners. I personally believe developers higher him for original design because of his work on US Open courses and they want championship caliber courses. I think many of his "redesign" work on classics was done to make those courses more challenging for US Opens. Golden Age architecture simply can not accommodate a modern US Open without drastic change.

With that said, I cant understand how Union League went through a 3 million dollar renovation and decide to change architects and hire Rees for a redesign. I am expecting drastic changes, but is that Rees or the club? The club obviously knows what they want and interviewed many architects. Also starting to wonder if the minimalism approach to architecture is being over done? Maybe Union League wants something very different? Will be interesting to see....

« **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2018, 01:12:26 PM »

I think Mike Cirba has been very fair in his critiquing of Rees Jones original work. Just my recollection from this site.

As for the Rees work on the classics..... I think it has been a complete failure. Granted, it can only be judged in the context of the clubs mission statement and what they "want" but twenty years ago, when Rees was doing a lot of his butchery clubs were not very educated on process.

I suspect he is selling the same stuff he always have but because of the great work in revision of others it is a lot harder sell.

His work on my home course was an unmitigated disaster, perhaps self imposed, but I tend to think not when he had the gall to criticize the team (architect as well as those within the club) involved in truly "restoring" the club.

In 2018 who in their right mind would hire Rees for any golf project especially one on an older course.

« **Reply #24 on:** July 16, 2018, 02:31:37 PM »

There are more talented design/build architects out there than ever before.

News:

Nick Ribeiro

mike_malone

MCirba

mike_malone

Nick Ribeiro

Steve_ Shaffer

MCirba

Kalen Braley

MCirba

Joe Bausch

Nick Ribeiro

archie_struthers

Nick Ribeiro

MCirba

Tim Martin

mike_malone

Nick Ribeiro

MCirba

Nick Ribeiro

MCirba

Nick Ribeiro

MCirba

Nick Ribeiro

corey miller

Kyle Harris