Best Course by Colt and Alison

[JNC Lyon]

After playing the Park Country Club, I would be interested to know what you think. What is the best course designed by Colt or Alison? Pine Valley is not included, because it was done by a number of architects. So what is it? Hirono? Sunningdale? Timber Point? Hamilton?

[JNC Lyon]

C'mon, don't be bashful!

[jeff kitchen]

It would be my guess that that pair built more courses than anyone. You've got a lot to choose from.

[Scott_Burroughs]

JNC,

Nice patience!  You waited less than 9 minutes to post your "don't be bashful comment"!  This isn't a chat room...and it's not during the workday when the most people are online.
 

Not sure I've played any C&A designs.

Jeff,

How many are they credited for?  Ross did 430-some approx. and RTJ. Sr. may have been more.

[Eric_Dorsey]

Davenport CC - it's a gem.

[jeff kitchen]

I think Allison in particular was very prolific. An amazing number of designs in South America and Asia in particular (aren't bunkers in Japan called Allisons?). I'll bet there are a few hidden gems in both places.

[jim_lewis]

I have not played enough Colt and Alison courses to declare any one to be the best. However, I did recently play The Country Club of Detroit, and it is very good. GOLFWEEK, which has it ranked #74 Classic, credits Colt with the design, but the score card credits both Colt and Alison. I was told that it is one of the few U.S. courses that had Colt played a major role in.

BTW, RT Jones, Sr. did "reconstruction" at CC of Detroit in 1951.  I don't know how much he changed the course , but the runway teeing grounds are vintage Jones.

Jim Lewis

[Paul_Turner]

You have to separate the two architects.  They rarely worked directly together.  Colt was more prolific than Alison, he got a large number of jobs and had a lengthy career in the UK, Ireland and Europe.

For Colt (ignoring PV) it's between:  Portrush, Muirfield, Swinley Forest and St George's Hill.  I pick Portrush.

For Alison it has to be:  Hirono, Kawana and Timber Point.  My guess is Hirono.

[T_MacWood]

I would agree with Paul, you have to seperate the two. For example the old CC of Detroit (NLE) was designed by Colt arounf 1912-13. The current CC of Detroit was designed by Alison in the twenties (unfortunately RTJ did a Oakland Hills-like number on the course in the 50's).

Why exclude PV...I know TE Paul would certainly place it on the top of Colt's inventory.

For Alison, I'd say Hirono and Timber Point, with Hirono having the edge.

As far Colt's best, I would have to concede to Paul's expert opinion. Those are courses he emphaized in his advertisements (along with PVGC). Others he was proud of: Sunningdale (New) and St.Andrews-Eden.

[jeff kitchen]

Timber Point? In LI? If so, it had to have been re-done. How much of the original course is left if so?

[JNC Lyon]

Timber Point is listed in the book Missing Links by Daniel Wexler. Judging from this publication, there is probably little to nothing left. The origanl included two seaside holes and several holes with alternate fairways and those that played around a yacht basin.

[TEPaul]

The best combined Colt/Alison design I know of--perhaps the only combined Colt/Alison design that ever existed (since I don't know that they ever really worked together) is the 9th hole at PVGC!  

[TEPaul]

Matter of fact, you just may be able to throw the 11th hole at PVGC in there too. It's a good thing for Harry and Hugh though that George died or he probably would've done something a bit different eventually!  

[T_MacWood]

Colt and Alison worked together at Stoke Poges. I suspect Crump visited SP and other Colt creations on his trip abroad. I'd say he made wise choice in hiring Colt to design his dream course.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom P

Do you think Crump's idea for the 11th would have been an improvement?  With the high green, like the 2nd?  I'm really not sure, I love the current hole, the way it snakes over the terrain, and the green is a beauty.  The high green could have been more difficult but perhaps the course would have had less variety.

The third course at Zoute, which was lost in WW2, may well have been a special links by Colt (Alison?).  (Ranked at #28 in the world in that early ranking list, found by Tom M).  

[Paul_Turner]

There may be some other courses in England that the two architects collaborated on.  I just haven't worked it out yet.  I do know that Haagsche is Alison's and so is Rochester (since redesigned by Steel).  

Not sure how much time Alison spent in the UK, once his branch of the firm got up and running in the US; perhaps the occasional visit back, but did he work at all?

Reading the letters in Colt and Co, it's pretty clear that Colt was the boss and both Alison and Morrison looked up to him.

[JNC Lyon]

Park C. C. was built by Colt and Alison

[T_MacWood]

Park was designed by CH Alison for the firm of Colt & Alison. Alison did all the firms work in America in the 1920's.

Paul
I'm sure Colt and Alison collaborated on more than a few. I am convinced Alison traveled back to the UK periodically. If you look at the traveling habits of Park, Fowler and even Colt-- they would often be in N.America in the early spring through some point in the summer/fall (in the case of Park and Fowler) and then go back to the UK for the winter. Plus there would have been opportunites in the late 20's and through the 30's for Colt and Alison (and Morrison) to work together in Europe.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

It's hard to say if Crump's idea (to be done later) for hole #11 high on the hill (and routed as a dogleg left) would've been an improvement or not. There's no question it would have been a much harder hole than #11 now is--or at least a more demanding second shot and that basically was Crump's intention.

One must remember that #11 was Crump's least favorite hole on the course according to W. Smith but also remember that the green on that hole was a very radical one of Crump's doing. Alison redesigned Crump's green into what's there now on basically the same spot.

But Crump's idea to make a hole with similar demands on the back nine somewhat similar to #2 on the front nine (he wanted it as the second hole on the back nine as #2 was on the front) but harder is an interesting one and very representative of Crump's basic idea for shot testing not only on the golf course but at specific places on the golf course. It seems that Crump (or Colt) may have placed the 11th green where it originally was and now is due to the dictates of the routing progression of that early time. One can clearly see that the 12th tee originally was sited very close and in front of where #11 green now is. That would have been an interesting drive up and over the hill on what may have been another iteration of #12!

Crump was known to have run into a dilemma beginning with how to finish (or route  and design) #12 and consequently #13, #14 and #15 to get back to #16 tee which had been built. That dilemma basically lasted for at least two years and apparently was designed by him but not constructed when he suddenly died in the early winter of 1918.

One can see, though, that as #12 did fall into place a green high on the natural hillside to the left of present #11 would have been very possible and interesting (as consequently in a routing the tee by present #11 would no longer have been necessary).

Frankly, in a balance context, a harder #11 probably would've been better. There's not much question in my mind (and many others who know PVGC over time) that for whatever reason the back nine at PVGC is probably the easier nine to score on and a much harder #11 would've counter-acted that to some extent!

[David Wigler]

C.C. Detroit is not in the league of Plum Hollow.  I know I am biased but it is not even close IMO.  I have played none of their International work and will not comment on courses that stopped existing before I was born, but of the ones I have seen, Milwaukee C.C. is the best remaining example of Alison's US work and Plum Hollow is the best routing (With a careful restoration, it would become the best, as it was considered in the 40's and 50's when it hosted Ryder Cup's and Major Championships).

[T_MacWood]

Milwaukee is another example of a RTJ overhaul...a la CC of Detroit. Kirtland is one Alison's best remaining designs, Park looks very very impressive, it appears to be very well preserved. I've heard good things about Knollwood. Lost Nation maybe his least altered course. Colony (NLE) was his most ambitious design in Detroit.

David
Are you certain that Plum Hollow hosted a Ryder Cup? I thought it was an exhibition of American pros vs. American pros.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom Paul writes.

"Crump was known to have run into a dilemma beginning with how to finish (or route  and design) #12 and consequently #13, #14 and #15 to get back to #16 tee which had been built. That dilemma basically lasted for at least two years and apparently was designed by him but not constructed when he suddenly died in the early winter of 1918."

If you look at the photos I sent you from Colt's scrapbook you can see that the 14th green is being built (seen from 16th fairway).  We know that Crump was alive then, because he sent the book to Colt (plus, I'm pretty certain that the writing in the book is Crump's too).  Therefore, I'm almost certain that the course was complete (built), in terms of routing, before Crump died (obviously not in terms of detail... Alison's contribution).  I'm not sure where the info-claiming that holes 12-15 were constructed after Crump died-comes from.  It certainly doesn't make sense, given that Tillie reports on the new 13th as early as Dec 1915!  

[Paul_Turner]

Regarding the Sunningdales:

The New has a very interesting evolution.  Basically several original Colt holes were abandoned because the members found them to be too hilly.  So unfortunately we lost the great, original, 7th.  Tom Simpson was called in to replace those holes; which I'm sure pissed Colt off to no end.  Simpson's holes were however not popular and Colt/Morrison had the last laugh by replacing these with their own new holes.  And luckily we got a world great short par 5: the 6th.

The Old has also been through a ton of changes, most during Colt's tenure as secretary and also when the New was built.  The general layout of the course is as Willie Park Jr routed it.  Colt however moved and/or totally redesigned the greens of holes: 1,4,5,6,7,8,11,12,13,15,17,18.  So I reckon the course is perhaps 50% Colt's.  Though it should be stressed that Park's routing is wonderful and gives the course its grand scale that appeals so much (like PV).

[TEPaul]

Paul

As to the status of PVGC's holes #12-15 at the time of Crump's death in 1918 there isn't that much doubt. I've said before those holes were routed and likely designed to a large extent but they were not finished, they had not been completely constructed and definitely were not in play when Crump died in January of 1918. Crump never played those holes or saw them completed or as part of the opened 18 hole course.

You may be forgetting the consequences of the duration of WW1 and the USA's 19 months in that war. The construction of holes #12-15 was put on hold at that time and actually a "victory garden" was planted on what is now #12 during 1917. The armistice was in November of 1917. Again, Crump died in January of 1918.

After Crump died the construction of those holes was put on hold again so the club could figure out both how to finish off and complete those holes and bring them into play as well as how to pay for that construction. All this is just further evidence of how central George Crump was to Pine Valley and it's construction in both design and funding.

Those holes--#12-15 did not come into play and finalize the 18 hole course of PVGC until the summer of 1920--two and a half years after Crump died.

Alison did not construct those holes either. Pine Valley constructed them with the assistance of the Wilsons of Merion and William Flynn. When Wayne and I found that agronomy file containing approximately 2000 letters between Hugh and Alan Wilson and Piper & Oakley of the US Department of Agriculture we came across a letter from Hugh Wilson explaining that William Flynn was spending 3-4 days a week for an extended period of time at PVGC during this time after Crump's death and before the completion of those holes!

There's no doubt that Flynn was constructing and finishing those four holes and obviously to the design that Crump had left before he died. There seem to be only a few differerences about the way those holes were finished off compared to what Crump may have intended for them including a big carry bunker on the tee shot left on #13 and possibly a number of details on #15, particularly on the second half of the hole.

In March of 1921 Alison offered his hole by hole recommenations in his report to the 1921 Advisory Committee which is well known. Alison recommended that #15 be turned into a very long par 4 but the committee did not accept that recommendation. The recommendations of Alison's that were done are also on record in detail. There's no question at all that both Alison, who was actually a member of the 1921 Advisory Committee, and the other members of the Committee were working off those two independent hole by hole "remembrances" by Carr and Smith regarding what Crump intended to do with the course had he lived. There's no question that the committee's decisions to accept or reject recommendations were influenced by what they understood Crump would have wanted.

[Paul Richards]

This is easy.


Milwaukee CC and Royal Portrush.



Without a doubt.