King Collins - Money Back Gaurentee - Sand Valley #3

[Emile Bonfiglio]

"Sand Valley III would be a dream come true. I believe that our effort there would result in the highest ranked course at the resort. We’d personally guarantee that statement in the form of returning our design fee if it didn’t happen." King Collins Golf Course Design https://twitter.com/KingCollinsGolf/status/1013890262844788736


Love this boldness, but is this good for GCA? Should that be the criteria for getting the job?

[Pete_Pittock]

Great course at Sweetens Cove.

[Cal Seifert]

If theyre going of the golf digest ratings they better be careful.

[Tom_Doak]

I guess they have nothing to lose.  In reality, lots of young designers would be smart to do the job for free, in order to gain attention.  But if they do they are going to suck all the value out of golf design work pretty quickly, instead of cashing in on their success.


Also, to make such a bet, wouldn't the client have to give them a free hand to design as they pleased?


Betting on rankings is a slippery slope, ESPECIALLY if you do it publicly.

[John Kavanaugh]

If the owner charges raters to play he gets revenue on one side and a free design on the other. All you have to do is base this on a magazine that you can't buy at an airport. He won't lose a single round to any self respecting traveling greens fee paying golfer.

[jeffwarne]

I guess they have nothing to lose.  In reality, lots of young designers would be smart to do the job for free, in order to gain attention.  But if they do they are going to suck all the value out of golf design work pretty quickly, instead of cashing in on their success.


Also, to make such a bet, wouldn't the client have to give them a free hand to design as they pleased?


Betting on rankings is a slippery slope, ESPECIALLY if you do it publicly.

a very bad idea for multiple reasons.
1. It all but eliminates a shot at subtlety
2.Which raters and what timeline...2 years out? 5? What if they debut favorably then fall out as moderns tend to do
3. Race to the bottom pricing
4. I'm sure there are other reasons

[Mike_Young]

hmmmmm.....would love to see how that contract was written...if you think buying raters and paying magazines is a pain now....watch if that type stuff ever starts...

[Peter Pallotta]

I like the boldness and wish them luck, but I think they misjudged the client: "award-chasing penny pincher" is not part of the brand; and, to paraphrase that old wine commericial: Mr K will pick no architect before his time.

[Chris Mavros]

I like the passion behind it.  It's confident, bold and a different approach.  Whether it's daring to build the perfect golf course in Long Island to emulate those in Scotland; building a different style of courses with railroad ties and your interpretation of links traits; writing a book critiquing long revered courses, or dumping your life savings into building what you think is the ideal course, there's a history of different approaches, taking risks or bold proclamations paying off in course design.   


Boldness paid off for MK in building Bandon as well. 


Also, I don't think this is as much about rankings as it is about guaranteeing quality.  Unfortunately, rankings is one of the few quantifiable aspects of quality even if imperfect. 

[Mike_Young]

Also, I don't think this is as much about rankings as it is about guaranteeing quality.  Unfortunately, rankings is one of the few quantifiable aspects of quality even if imperfect.

Chris,I know plenty of quality that is not ranked.  And I know some ranked that are not quality.  So not sure I agree with the above.  When it comes to golf course architecture whether it be writers or designers or builders I will always stake my hat on 10,000 hours winning out most of the time with all conditions being the same.  And while some may take that to think I am speaking specifically of designers, I was actually thinking of some of the Golf TV personalities who have become golf architecture experts over just a couple of years.  A few don't know good from bad sadly they are listened to.  This is only a glamour business for two or three guys.  The rest have to function as a business or either do something else.  And some of those have some really good stuff.  I often just tire of the BS...

[Chris Mavros]

Also, I don't think this is as much about rankings as it is about guaranteeing quality.  Unfortunately, rankings is one of the few quantifiable aspects of quality even if imperfect.

Chris,I know plenty of quality that is not ranked.  And I know some ranked that are not quality.  So not sure I agree with the above.  When it comes to golf course architecture whether it be writers or designers or builders I will always stake my hat on 10,000 hours winning out most of the time with all conditions being the same.  And while some may take that to think I am speaking specifically of designers, I was actually thinking of some of the Golf TV personalities who have become golf architecture experts over just a couple of years.  A few don't know good from bad sadly they are listened to.  This is only a glamour business for two or three guys.  The rest have to function as a business or either do something else.  And some of those have some really good stuff.  I often just tire of the BS...

Hey Mike, I agree that rankings does not necessarily correlate with quality, was just making the point that Rob's guarantee of quality in building the course was possibly tied into ranking for effect.  In fact I agree with your entire post. 

[Mike_Young]

Also, I don't think this is as much about rankings as it is about guaranteeing quality.  Unfortunately, rankings is one of the few quantifiable aspects of quality even if imperfect.

Chris,I know plenty of quality that is not ranked.  And I know some ranked that are not quality.  So not sure I agree with the above.  When it comes to golf course architecture whether it be writers or designers or builders I will always stake my hat on 10,000 hours winning out most of the time with all conditions being the same.  And while some may take that to think I am speaking specifically of designers, I was actually thinking of some of the Golf TV personalities who have become golf architecture experts over just a couple of years.  A few don't know good from bad sadly they are listened to.  This is only a glamour business for two or three guys.  The rest have to function as a business or either do something else.  And some of those have some really good stuff.  I often just tire of the BS...

Hey Mike, I agree that rankings does not correlate with quality, was just making the point that Rob's guarantee of quality in building the course was possibly tied into ranking for effect.  In fact I agree with your entire post.

That's fine.  I was just making my usual comments.  I actually think many guys are like me and really don't know where all these various destination places are ranked.  I don't care and just want to go see them for where they are located.  Greatness IMHO is expressed much more by what is not done at these locations than what is....