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Matt_Cohn

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Most disparate QUALITY of courses at one facility/club
« on: June 21, 2018, 05:53:59 PM »
Just got to thinking — what facility has the the greatest delta in the quality of its two (or more) courses? For the next week or two it might be Chuck Corica, which has a Doak 6-ish and a Doak 2-ish. But they're about to start the North Course renovation, so that's not really a fair or long-term comparison. Others?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 01:43:14 PM by Matt_Cohn »

Greg Smith

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 06:06:50 PM »
Baltimore CC Five Farms?   East = 1926 Tillinghast masterpiece.  West = Bob Cupp and Tom Kite, 1990.  Though Keith Foster has worked on it since, it must be somewhat pedestrian in comparison (Foster did restoration work on the East too, IIRC).


O fools!  who drudge from morn til night
And dream your way of life is wise,
Come hither!  prove a happier plight,
The golfer lives in Paradise!                      

John Somerville, The Ballade of the Links at Rye (1898)

Cal Seifert

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 06:33:39 PM »
Forsgate comes to mind

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2018, 06:39:40 PM »
Interesting question.


In Phoenix, what jumps to mind is Camelback GC.


Their Ambiente Course went through a recent renovation by Jason Straka. I have my issues with it, but it's definitely decent. A solid 4 or 5. The Padre course is an Art Hills fiasco with six fake lakes. In a generous mood, I'll give it a 2.


The other candidate would be the Biltmore, where you have the fun, sporty Adobe Course by Forrest Richardson. It's not spectacular but it's mostly (10th hole excepted) a core routing with wild greens and fun holes and reasonable prices. A 3, maybe a 4 when the greens are rolling.


But The Links Course there is an abomination, a dead solid 1.


Can't really think of anything else in Arizona that's got such an obvious disparity. Forest Highlands has a pretty great course and a pretty good one ...

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2018, 06:42:21 PM »
Thinking of other places I've played ...


Eisenhower Golf Club at the AFA in Colorado Springs ...


The Blue Course is an RTJ beast, but a really wonderful course with some excellent natural holes. Probably a 6. The Silver course there is fine, but forgettable. An average 3. Very good example of a venue with a "championship" course and an "other" course.

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2018, 06:50:14 PM »
Mission Inn in Florida is in the conversation.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

John Connolly

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2018, 06:52:33 PM »
Lawsonia


Links - fantastic by almost every measure
Woodlands - pedestrian
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

astavrides

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2018, 08:27:54 PM »
Just got to thinking — what facility has the the greatest delta in the quality of its two (or more) courses? For the next week or two it might be Chuck Corica, which has a Doak 6-ish and a Doak 2-ish. But they're about to start the North Course renovation, so that's not really a fair or long-term comparison. Others?


Is Rees going to be the one to redo the North too?

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2018, 08:33:55 PM »
Is Rees going to be the one to redo the North too?


I'm not sure but I don't think so. Here's the plan. Same corridors as what's there now, though in a different order.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2018, 05:14:25 AM »
Woodhall Spa?

Sean_A

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2018, 05:46:10 AM »
Woodhall Spa?


This is what I was thinking...especially with the recent work to Hotchkin. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim Nugent

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2018, 06:37:15 AM »
Ballybunion?  The old is one of the world's great classics.  The new, while set on dramatic ground, is reportedly often unplayable. 

ETA: but the king in this field, at least according to Doak, must be St. Andrews.  He gave TOC a 10, but the Castle Course a 0. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 06:39:08 AM by Jim Nugent »

Alan Ritchie

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2018, 07:04:54 AM »
Would Troon be in that equation? Not sure if the Portland would count..

Phil McDade

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2018, 09:13:48 AM »
Lawsonia


Links - fantastic by almost every measure
Woodlands - pedestrian


The poster child for this discussion.

Doug Wright

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2018, 06:05:43 PM »
It's easy to default to "good" and "bad" or "championship" and "other/reliever" vis a vis this topic. When I think about this topic, Talking Stick North and Talking Stick South immediately come to mind. Two very different courses (TSN desert, TSS parkland) done by the same architects (Coore/Crenshaw) at the same time on the same flat desert canvas. The differences are worth studying, and I've enjoyed doing that when down in Scottsdale.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Jon McSweeny

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2018, 08:48:08 PM »
Alisal?


Never played the River Course. Don't usually hear good things about it.

Rob Rigg

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2018, 10:07:18 PM »
Ballybunion seems like the most obvious variance.

We Ko Pa - Saguaro might be the best course in the PHX area public or private, while Cholla is pretty meh. Not terrible, but not even close.
What about the Ross vs Dye courses at French Lick?

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2018, 10:10:18 PM »
The Irish Open is at Ballyliffen. Can't get much more different than Glashedy and Old.

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tim Leahy

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2018, 12:29:40 AM »
Torrey South and North.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2018, 01:00:01 AM »
Alisal?
Never played the River Course. Don't usually hear good things about it.


I wouldn't have thought of Alisal for this thread - I'd say the delta between the two courses isn't as great as some others mentioned here.  Also, despite the horrific looking par 3 that is visible from the road, the River course isn't that terrible.  Both courses could use an update, but unlikely to happen given the usage by ranch guests.


Some great family memories there (we went to the ranch 15 straight years).  Maybe the site of my middle son's longest drive a few years ago:  https://youtu.be/xtGFf0IsQSs
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Charles Lund

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2018, 02:29:55 AM »
The Irish Open is at Ballyliffen. Can't get much more different than Glashedy and Old.




Although The Old Links and Glashedy at Ballyliffin offer different kinds of links experiences, Glashedy was recently ranked #9 in the Republic of Ireland and The Old Links was #15. On the Doak Scale, both have a rating of 5, also suggesting little difference in ratings.


Many members prefer The Old Links due to the natural quality of the layout, related to the lack of much power equipment when the nine hole layout built in 1947 was altered and expanded in the early 70s, at very little cost and with donated labor.  Some visitors also prefer the Old Links.  The Glashedy originallly had the capacity for a lot more length and member tees add about 300 yards compared to The Old Links.  Glsshedy has a par of 72 and The Old a par of 71. For the Irish Open, new tees were built for #2, #4, and #9, stretching length to up to 7500 yards.


Bunkering is fairly penal on both courses, but the depth of the Glsshedy bunkers is much greater.


When I travel there, I play each course about equally and often I base my choice on which one has a competition, people I am playing with, time affording quicker play. 


The Old Links has one mediocre par three and Glashedy has a transition hole which is out of character with remaining holes.  The remaining holes on each course offer varying degrees of difficulty, depending on wind magnitude and direction.


Charles Lund




Peter Flory

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2018, 03:14:52 AM »
Cog Hill.  Dubsdread is a monster compared to its 3 sisters. 


One variation on the question would be what is the biggest cost differential in fees for related courses. 


Dubs: $155
Ravines: $74
Courses 1 & 3: $54


So, in this case, you have one course on the property that costs 3x two other courses and 2x another. 



In terms of style differential, Arcadia Bluffs is going to have 2 radically different courses.  In a good way though, I hope. 



« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 03:19:35 AM by Peter Flory »

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2018, 03:59:04 AM »
Pinehurst #2 vs maybe #5
Pebble Beach vs Peter Hay

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2018, 08:17:23 AM »
Torrey South and North.


Just curious which is the lesser course?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most disparate courses at one facility/club
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2018, 09:31:57 AM »
Dornoch
Dornoch Struie


Portrush Valley - great fun
Portrush Dunluce - a beast

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