Discuss: PGA Tour Players Are Spoiled Babies

[Mike Sweeney]

Mark,


When Bethpage hosts a tournament how much good is done for the local community through visitors and charity? Aren't you being a bit selfish whining about fairway widths and the like?

1) Bethpage is really its own universe on Long Island. Sure it is good for the economy, but you are talking about a pretty big park in the middle of a huge economy.


2) I played Bethpage Black and Winged Foot East back to back and BB was just insanely hard. I hate saying that but it was beyond "over the top". WFE was "sporty" in comparison.

[Pat Burke]

Cutting Poa like that, and then starving it of water is asking for troubles


But I'm still amazed at the decision to simply not syringe the greens?


Bumpy hard and fast greens are neither unfair or fair


They are just bad

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,


So, do people that don't normally play the course show up at Bethpage for these random events and donate large sums of money to charity? Isn't that true of every event affiliated with professional golf? It's the Monday thru Wednesday crowd that wants to see something beyond the pale. That's why you can't fight it. Tone down the course and the charities suffer.

[Mark Fedeli]

John, coincidentally, this year I decided to leave social goodwill out of my criteria for evaluating mowing lines.


Corey, lately, I find baseball's "unwritten rules" being used mainly as a way to suppress expression and individuality, particularly from Latino players. See also: playing "the right way." For a sport whose relevance is slipping, that's not the way forward. And I'm no new-age hippie. Chase Utley is my favorite player and the stolen base is my favorite action in the game.

[corey miller]

Mark


A little threadjack here but I find it rather preposterous that rules that have existed in the game forever, many for good reason and now somehow they are aimed at latin players?  Guess what...It is players themselves that enforce the rules and I find it comical that the only ones offended by the rules are media types.  The rules you despise keep others in line which is more than I can say in other sports.


The NBA is a joke so no need to address behavior and sportsmanship in that sport but the NFL for instance has had a marked rise in idiotic behavior once they changed rules to make the game less physical.  We now see WR's acting like jerks on five yard gains where once they would not because there was a retaliatory element. 


With baseball, policing occurs withing the game by the participants....Didn't Utley make a slide in an NLCS game that was deemed unprofessional?  Is the game any worse if it gets policed by others?  What of the unwritten rule you don't throw at a guys head? Isn't it better if the pitcher polices the other pitcher than some sort of "warning" from an umpire?


Having a hard time seeing how baseball rules, and unwritten ones that respect the game make the players spoiled brats and some first down celebration is okay.  What I do know is perhaps golf would be a better game if Phil's playing partner had confronted him. 


Your social commentary on how Latin players are mistreated in MLB is comical.

[Mark Fedeli]

Thank you, Corey. I stand by what I said.

[Edward Glidewell]

Thank you, Corey. I stand by what I said.

+1


The unwritten rules baseball guys (and it's not just MLB, it goes all the way through high school and even into high level youth ball) are the most self-righteous, insufferable people in sports. I'd rather see a soccer or basketball player flop 500 times than have to hear one short soundbite from players like Brian McCann who think they are the arbiters of all that is right and good, and if someone celebrates hitting a home run they're a demon.


To get back on topic, yes, the PGA Tour players are absolutely spoiled babies. Remember when they threw a fit at the Memorial because Jack Nicklaus tried to make the bunkers an actual hazard?

[Randy Thompson]

Its not just the pro´s! I am regularly told by scratch golfers on how such and such green doesn´t reward a good shot. They think anything that lands near the pin is a good shot and should be rewarded. What is the problem with pin positions that can be designed where a high iron with high trajectory will be rewarded but a lower trajectory shot near the pin will not hold. If you don´t have the trajectory necessary for the distance, then it hit it short and let the ball run up close. That would be a good shot and properly rewarded. Common mentalities are any reverse tilts in any áreas of a putting surface is unfair. Suck it up buttercup!

[Jim Nugent]

Jeff,

I think whether the USGA apologized or not is irrelevant. My point was exactly that they bowed to complaints from the players, but shouldn't have. Nothing I witnessed on Saturday struck me as "unfair." Needlessly difficult? Perhaps.

I don't think player complaints swayed the USGA.  They knew a) the course played 4-5 strokes easier Saturday morning, b) the setup was largely responsible for the disparity, and c) considered that a debacle. 

i.e. the problem was not a difficult test.  It was a gentle test for those who barely made the cut, and a beast of a test for those at the top of the leaderboard.   

Many complain that the USGA overreacted, and set up the course too easy on Sunday.  I don't agree.  Only one of the leaders or players in contention shot under par.  What's more, the difference in scoring from Saturday morning to Saturday afternoon was greater than from Saturday to Sunday, and again, the reason was setup.  i.e. if you complain about the setup on Sunday, you should be far more outraged about the setup on Saturday, because it resulted in a much bigger stroke differential.     

[Thomas Dai]

You could give some folks, and not just PGA Tour Players either, a winning lottery ticket and they’d still moan. However, when there are folk in the world living on the breadline or worse it seems a bit much that multi-millionaires with a exceptionally high standard of living moan about a few micro-mm when cutting grass.
Perspective can often be something that is easily missed.
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

Anyone who gives up their course so the PGA Tour can raise 180 million dollars a year for local charities is hardly a cry baby.

[Garland Bayley]

Its not just the pro´s! I am regularly told by scratch golfers on how such and such green doesn´t reward a good shot. They think anything that lands near the pin is a good shot and should be rewarded. What is the problem with pin positions that can be designed where a high iron with high trajectory will be rewarded but a lower trajectory shot near the pin will not hold. If you don´t have the trajectory necessary for the distance, then it hit it short and let the ball run up close. That would be a good shot and properly rewarded. Common mentalities are any reverse tilts in any áreas of a putting surface is unfair. Suck it up buttercup!

+1

i read a pych report that said to become top golfers you have to be a liar. In other words, you readily blame outside factors instead of yourself for bad results. I.e., you lie to yourself to save your ego and confidence. The report cited an instance where Gary Player made a bad bunker shot, and insisted that there had been a rock in the bunker that affected his result, when everyone else there knew there was no rock.

[Steve Lang]

   on purely economic terms, as Fuzzy Z once told me walking between holes at a Champions tour event, after i asked why he still plays... "Ya know, they put that money out there and someone's got to go get it.."   


Rich or not, the majority of pro players know they aren't going to win, and when that one or two glimmers of hope fade away, they're working out there for their living and the respect of their peers (and to qualify for next year).  So I don't care if they whine nor not, you can't be good or smart at something and not be bad or dumb on other things, they're just a metric of the game, with some occasionally good 'one-liners"

[John Kavanaugh]

Imagine the millions of dollars and architectural blunders that are made so tour courses look good on TV. I doubt if many tour players are complaining about how a course looks on TV after they miss a cut.

[Kalen Braley]

So i have a question about one of baseballs "unwritten" rules...


Why is it OK for the pitcher to do an exaggerated fist pump or muscle flex pose or lean back and yell at the sky after a big strikeout...


But not OK for a batter to do a bat flip or a little swagger trot after a home run?

[Jim Hoak]

I assume that we all agree that there needs to be a difference in course setups and difficulty between the US Open and the Hartford Open.  How that difference is achieved is often difficult to execute, and the USGA may err at times.  But the historic vitriol between players and the USGA is silly.  Many players seem to think that any increase in course difficulty is meant to embarrass them; yet I would assume all would agree in theory with the need to differentiate an Open course so as better to identify an Open-caliber winner.  I think that the whiners need to grow up--it's ok to express a honest opinion on how the necessary difference in course setups need to be executed, but they should cut out the venom and accusations that have been directed toward the USGA for years.  They do often come across as spoiled babies.

[Mark Fedeli]

I assume that we all agree that there needs to be a difference in course setups and difficulty between the US Open and the Hartford Open.  How that difference is achieved is often difficult to execute, and the USGA may err at times.  But the historic vitriol between players and the USGA is silly.  Many players seem to think that any increase in course difficulty is meant to embarrass them; yet I would assume all would agree in theory with the need to differentiate an Open course so as better to identify an Open-caliber winner.  I think that the whiners need to grow up--it's ok to express a honest opinion on how the necessary difference in course setups need to be executed, but they should cut out the venom and accusations that have been directed toward the USGA for years.  They do often come across as spoiled babies.

Jim, you're right, of course, but the players need to make the USGA the bad guy in as many cases as possible, for as long as possible. That's how they gaslight certain fans into always supporting their side of the argument. How else to explain the legions of fans who reflexively take the Tour pro's side in any debate about distance or technology or conditioning or set-up?

[JMEvensky]

So i have a question about one of baseballs "unwritten" rules...


Why is it OK for the pitcher to do an exaggerated fist pump or muscle flex pose or lean back and yell at the sky after a big strikeout...


But not OK for a batter to do a bat flip or a little swagger trot after a home run?

Before the DH,it wasn't. Pitchers not coming to bat in the AL altered the unwritten rule universe. I'd guess you see much less pitcher fist pumping in the NL.

[A.G._Crockett]

If being critical of the USGA makes one a spoiled baby, then almost everybody on this board would have to plead guilty.
I said before the Open started that it's my least favorite, and usually the least compelling, not only of the four majors but of several other Tour stops as well.  I just don't find it very interesting many, many years to watch them play great golf courses the way the USGA sets them up. 

As to the players, I don't think complaining about yearly display of incompetence by the USGA constitutes, in and of itself, being a spoiled baby.  We don't see what happened at Shinnecock happen any other time all year, and the USGA manages to do it more often than not. 

I'll add one other thing: I don't think you would find a superintendent of ANY course that has ever hosted a USGA championship that would have a good word to say about the individuals or the organization itself.  They run roughshod over the local staff, and often leave a damaged golf course in their wake for the membership to deal with.  My understanding is that the USGA had to move heaven and earth to convince the powers that be at Shinnecock to let them come back; I wouldn't be surprised if the Open was never played there again.
So my answer is, "Yes, some of them are, like any segment of the population.  But not because they are critical of the USGA."

[Jeff Schley]

 My understanding is that the USGA had to move heaven and earth to convince the powers that be at Shinnecock to let them come back; I wouldn't be surprised if the Open was never played there again.

Well then they would have to change their plan, for the USGA has already announced that they are hosting the 2026.

2019: Pebble Beach Golf Links - Pebble Beach, Calif. - June 13-16   
2020: Winged Foot Golf Club (West Course) - Mamaroneck, N.Y. - June 18-21   
2021: Torrey Pines Golf Course (South Course) - San Diego, Calif. - June 17-20   
2022: The Country Club - The Country Club - Brookline, Mass. - June 16-19   
2023: The Los Angeles Country Club (North Course) - Los Angeles, Calif. - June 15-18   
2024: Pinehurst Resort & Country Club (Course No. 2) - Village of Pinehurst, N.C. - June 13-16   
2025: Oakmont Country Club - Oakmont, Pa. - June 12-15   
2026: Shinnecock Hills Golf Club - Southampton, N.Y. - June 18-21 
2027: Pebble Beach Golf Links - Pebble Beach, Calif. - June 17-20

[Thomas Dai]

Anyone who gives up their course so the PGA Tour can raise 180 million dollars a year for local charities is hardly a cry baby.

JK,
Things operate different in different parts of the world but would it be correct to assume that such charity money is tax-deductible?
Just curious.
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes the money is tax deductible. That is why it is so powerful. Does anyone believe that people pay thousands of dollars to play in a pro am to make the world a better place?

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for this JK. Throws a different perspective on things.
As an aside, in some parts of the world whatever a person gives to charity comes directly out of their own pocket, ie no tax-deductible allowed. Different countries, different rules, such is the way of the world I guess.
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

Thomas,


So I take it that you haven't spent most of your golfing life playing in charity scrambles during the work week. Is this an American thing?

[Jeff Schley]

PGA Tour events are run by individual 501(c)(3) organizations that put on the tournaments.  The purse is raised via sponsors and TV rights. Title sponsors actually get to write off their donations as a charitable expense as well.  There are the pro am spots given to sponsors or up for x amount of $ but this is a very small amount.  However, as John said that cost is deductible as well minus the assessed value (round of golf + lunch/breakfast or whatever).
The PGA Tour has certainly donated a wonderful amount, however has never scored high on the various watchdog charity groups scorecards.  Principally since the overhead is so high, although they benefit tremendously due to having hundreds of volunteers at the events as well.
Some good is done via the charitable donations certainly, however in essence that good is subsidized by the federal/state tax breaks for the purses and PR exposure given to the sponsors.