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Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #325 on: June 28, 2018, 06:50:00 PM »
He did not gain an advantage due to his actions. Had he not broken the rule with his "stroke", taking an allowed unplayable would have put him back on the green, 2 strokes less and 4 feet behind from where he eventually played. The advantage wording in the rules is there to cover situations where the 2 stroke penalty is clearly not enough. For example, dropping 200 yards closer to the pin than what is entitled.
That's not how that works.

Mike Davis gave the example of a player deflecting a ball that was heading OB (two strokes) even though he could have just also taken stroke and distance. You can't say "he could have done such and such…" because he didn't. The simple fact is that it was a serious breach because it seriously altered where the ball was going to end up. He didn't deflect a ball that was going to come to rest in a foot or two, he stopped/deflected a ball that was going to roll another 10-20 yards and to a position from which Phil said he would have "no shot."

It was a serious breach, IMO.


Edit: I was beaten to it using the Decision, which has been mentioned previously too.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #326 on: June 28, 2018, 07:05:50 PM »
Interestingly enough... he openly admitted his opinion wouldn't have held up cause knew deep down it was suspect.


"Fay replied that after taking Mickelson's explanation into account, "I probably would have lost...but I'd have lobbied for disqualification."


http://www.golf.com/tour-news/2018/06/16/former-usga-chief-david-fay-says-phil--mickelson-dq-us-open

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #327 on: June 28, 2018, 07:23:40 PM »

AG,


the situation is clearly covered by the rules. Phil deliberately deflected a moving ball in order to gain an advantage all of which is beyond dispute.


1. Was the ball moving when Phil struck it? Yes
2. Did his actions alter the direction of the ball and where it would have ended up without intervention? Yes
3. Did he gain an advantage through his actions? Yes


Clear and serious breach of the rules which should lead to disqualification.


Staggered that people are still arguing AGAINST the above?


You folks play a game which I’m not familiar with and don’t want to be.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #328 on: June 28, 2018, 07:39:31 PM »
From Barry Rhodes, someone who knows the rules.

Moving Balls - Phil Mickelson and Zach Johnson
Posted: 27 Jun 2018 10:01 AM PDT
 
Mickelson Strikes His Moving Ball
By now most readers will have made up their own mind about the Mickelson incident at the 2018 US Open at Shinnecock Hills. Some may not have seen this updated statement from USGA PR, which in my opinion shows why there was never any possibility of an alternative ruling;

There appears to be some continued uncertainty about the basis of the ruling with Phil Mickelson during the third round of the 118th U.S. Open, and we would like to further clarify previous statements. During play of the 13th hole Mickelson made a stroke on the putting green at his ball, which was moving. As a result, he incurred a two-stroke penalty for a breach of Rule 14-5; the stroke made at the moving ball also counted. His score for the hole was 10. Rule 14-5 does not include a serious breach clause or disqualification as part of the penalty statement.

Rule 1-2 did not apply in this situation because Mickelson made a stroke at the ball (defined as the forward movement of the club with the intention of striking at and moving the ball) as opposed to another act to deflect or stop the ball in motion, which are two acts covered by Rule 1-2. Additionally, Exception 1 under Rule 1-2 states that “an action expressly permitted or expressly prohibited by another Rule is subject to that other Rule and not Rule 1-2.” As the act of making a stroke at a moving ball is expressly covered by Rule 14-5, that Rule and the penalty associated with that Rule were applied. The Committee looked at the facts of the situation and determined that there were no grounds under the Rules of Golf for any further penalty, including disqualification.

The key point is that Mickelson made a stroke at his ball in motion, the forward movement of his club made with the intent of striking it to the hole. Rule 1-2, which many have been confused by, relates to a player deflecting or stopping a ball. An example of this would be when a player, after chipping their ball up a steep slope, sees it roll back down the slope and to avoid it ending up in the water of a water hazard, they either stop it or deflect it sideways.

Interestingly, the ruling on this incident would be the same under the new Rules of Golf - 2019, as they are currently drafted.

Agreeing with the USGA ruling does not mean that I condone Mickelson's action, which in my opinion was unbecoming of a professional golfer. I would have preferred if he had apologised and withdrawn before the next round commenced. At least he has since had the sense to correct his original assertion that he had made a deliberate action to “take advantage of the Rules”. In a tweet to a GolfDigest reporter he said,

“I know this should've come sooner, but it's taken me a few days to calm down. My anger and frustration got the best of me last weekend. I'm embarrassed and disappointed by my actions. It was clearly not my finest moment and I'm sorry“.

Not that it is relevant, but I would still like to know how PM gained an advantage by making a stroke at a moving ball.  Someone may argue that Meat was disadvantaged as a result of PM's craziness, but he seemed to be having a good time with it.  I would bet the farm that if he was asked about it, he would just say it is all part of the circus.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #329 on: June 28, 2018, 07:48:07 PM »
Lou, it wasn't necessary to repeat the USGA's stance on the issue. We know what it is. Some of us just disagree with the USGA's ruling.

And the "advantage" stuff was literally just talked about a few posts above.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #330 on: June 28, 2018, 08:14:59 PM »
Lou, it wasn't necessary to repeat the USGA's stance on the issue. We know what it is. Some of us just disagree with the USGA's ruling.

And the "advantage" stuff was literally just talked about a few posts above.

Being admonished for being repetitive by you is quite a treat.

Fortunately, you are not teaching English, reading comprehension, or critical thinking.   ::)   

P.S.- or simple arithmetic either

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #331 on: June 29, 2018, 01:20:33 AM »
Sweet Lou
At least a few people seem to have a grip of the rule and the ruling in this case. I am amazed folks still claim another ruling should have been made... as if 14-5 doesn't exist.




Does anybody know why there is a different penalty for stroking the ball VS deflecting/stopping a moving ball?
Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #332 on: June 29, 2018, 05:45:19 AM »
Sweet Lou
At least a few people seem to have a grip of the rule and the ruling in this case. I am amazed folks still claim another ruling should have been made... as if 14-5 doesn't exist.




Does anybody know why there is a different penalty for stroking the ball VS deflecting/stopping a moving ball?
Ciao



Sean,


I would imagine stop or deflect is a deliberate action where as striking a moving ball is when the player did not intend to do so.


Just for those who do not understand. Any deliberate breaking of a rule is a serious breach of the rules. It is nothing to do with what advantage is gained though why do it if you do not believe there is an advantage.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #333 on: June 29, 2018, 07:57:55 AM »
Jon,

Please refer me to the section of the Rules that says:

"Any deliberate breaking of a rule is a serious breach of the rules."  I don't claim to be a rules expert, but I've been through the most current "Decisions" book, some parts more than once, and I've never seen "serious breach" defined accordingly.  It is much better that we understand facts as opposed to how you wish things were so.

"It is nothing to do with what advantage is gained though why do it if you do not believe there is an advantage".  I can think of several related reasons- frustration, anger, submission, mind gone blank, ....

Again, advantage or disadvantage is not relevant in this decision.  Erik and others can repeat themselves 'til the cows come home, but it doesn't take away from the fact that all PM had to do when the putt was going by the hole is place another ball on the spot from where he hit it and stroked it again with only a one stroke penalty (27-1).  When I was taught simple arithmetic in first grade, two is more than one, therefore taking an additional stroke penalty does not give anyone an advantage.

As to A.G.'s impassioned conviction of PM, I would refer him to CSN&Y's "Teach Your Children".   Me, a very junior rules official who spends much more time looking for foul balls and scurrying players along than actually officiating, I consider the way guys like personal favorite Jordan Spieth play the game at a glacial pace far more egregious and negatively imprinting on our youth.  Yes, PM complained about being taxed out of the gazoo, he gambles, he was accused of insider trading, etc.  None of these things have a bearing on the ruling.   

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #334 on: June 29, 2018, 08:11:35 AM »
Rule 1-2 say - don't do anything to a moving ball - with a penalty of 2 strokes...unless the breach was deemed 'serious'. It provides an example of a serious breach which is well less than Phil's move.  Also says if any other rule expressly permits or prohibits an action, that other rule takes precedence...seemingly sending us to 14-5.


Rule 14-5 says - don't make a stroke while it's moving - with a penalty of 2 strokes...then says if the ball was purposely deflected or stopped you refer to Rule 1-2...if a stroke is simply the forward movement of the club, how would a deflection not fit inside that definition?


We could bounce back and forth from 1-2 to 14-5 until we get bored...ha...but this group doesn't get bored...

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #335 on: June 29, 2018, 08:57:41 AM »
Jon,

Please refer me to the section of the Rules that says:

"Any deliberate breaking of a rule is a serious breach of the rules."  I don't claim to be a rules expert, but I've been through the most current "Decisions" book, some parts more than once, and I've never seen "serious breach" defined accordingly.  It is much better that we understand facts as opposed to how you wish things were so.

"It is nothing to do with what advantage is gained though why do it if you do not believe there is an advantage".  I can think of several related reasons- frustration, anger, submission, mind gone blank, ....

Again, advantage or disadvantage is not relevant in this decision.  Erik and others can repeat themselves 'til the cows come home, but it doesn't take away from the fact that all PM had to do when the putt was going by the hole is place another ball on the spot from where he hit it and stroked it again with only a one stroke penalty (27-1).  When I was taught simple arithmetic in first grade, two is more than one, therefore taking an additional stroke penalty does not give anyone an advantage.

As to A.G.'s impassioned conviction of PM, I would refer him to CSN&Y's "Teach Your Children".   Me, a very junior rules official who spends much more time looking for foul balls and scurrying players along than actually officiating, I consider the way guys like personal favorite Jordan Spieth play the game at a glacial pace far more egregious and negatively imprinting on our youth.  Yes, PM complained about being taxed out of the gazoo, he gambles, he was accused of insider trading, etc.  None of these things have a bearing on the ruling.   



Lou,


sorry but even as a minor rules official you should realise/know that an act of deliberately breaking a rule is 'serious'. That you appear not to might actually back up my assertion about the USGA's credibility as a ruling body.
I am not sure what more PM could have done to make it worse.
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I agree about the slow play thing but that is not to do with breach of rules.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #336 on: June 29, 2018, 11:47:09 AM »
Seems to me at the end of the day,  the folks on the right side,  ;)  like Lou, Sean, and I maintain it was a legal stroke....


And the other side that it was a deflection.....


I would post for the umpteenth time the definition of a stroke, as stated in the rules, but I suspect it will do no good.   

Peter Pallotta

Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #337 on: June 29, 2018, 12:01:43 PM »
Phil simply lost his cool, but then with the agile mind he's famous for tried to cover it up by embarrassing the USGA instead. Setting aside the letter of the law/rules, I would've canned him just for being such an assh--e. But I suppose that would've been too 'street' for the USGA, and look too emotional/vindictive or as if it was trying to deflect attention away from the set-up. As he did when he embarrassed Tom Watson post Ryder Cup, the mean side of Phil certainly knows how to pick his spots.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #338 on: June 29, 2018, 12:12:10 PM »
Due to the USGA's "simplification" of the rules, I really don't understand several of them now as they have become anything but "simpler".


I don't pretend to know or even have an opinion on whether Phil should be disqualified, but I'm a bit stunned that what Phil did requires an interpretation or even an explanation by the USGA.
Surely it has come up before that someone hit a moving ball on purpose and it should be addressed in either the rules or at least in a decision.


It seems to me Phil lost his shite and really didn't care what the decision was at the moment of breaking, then backtracked as only Phil can do.....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #339 on: June 29, 2018, 12:28:42 PM »
Seems to me at the end of the day,  the folks on the right side,  ;)  like Lou, Sean, and I maintain it was a legal stroke....


And the other side that it was a deflection.....


I would post for the umpteenth time the definition of a stroke, as stated in the rules, but I suspect it will do no good.
Kalen,That he swung the club, and that the ball went in the direction of the hole (actually striking the cup) doesn't change the fact that his intent was to deflect the ball before it went off the green; he said so himself, that he wanted to "stop the back and forth". 

The USGA chose the rule that would allow them to let Mickelson keep playing; that's who the USGA is.  That the USGA did not see his actions as a serious breach of the Rules tells you all you need to know about them, and Mickelson's post round comments tell you all you need to know about him. 

There is just no way around it, and parsing words about the differences between strokes or deflections or this rule or that rule doesn't change what he did, why he did it, or the simplest facts of all; it was a serious breach of the Rules by an entitled D-bag, and the USGA is spineless.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 12:30:38 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #340 on: June 29, 2018, 12:29:36 PM »
jeff,


I recall watching an interview during the tournament where the head guy said the decision to use rule 14-5 to govern the violation..was both unanimous and took less than 2 minutes to discuss by the committee


The rule is clear as day to many of us, as well as the committee... its only the media and everyone else who wanted to blow this up and make a mountain out of a molehill.

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #341 on: June 29, 2018, 12:53:16 PM »
Hard to believe this argument is still going on. I am not a fan of Phil, but I don't think he should have been DQ'd for this. I think he should have got exactly what he did get - a 2 stroke penalty. What he did is clearly covered by 14-5. If you think this is not something covered by 14-5, I'm curious what situation you think would be covered by 14-5.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #342 on: June 29, 2018, 12:57:06 PM »
jeff,


I recall watching an interview during the tournament where the head guy said the decision to use rule 14-5 to govern the violation..was both unanimous and took less than 2 minutes to discuss by the committee


The rule is clear as day to many of us, as well as the committee... its only the media and everyone else who wanted to blow this up and make a mountain out of a molehill.
Most of my bad decisions have been unanimous and made in less than two minutes.  My wife will confirm this.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #343 on: June 29, 2018, 01:02:00 PM »
I'm no fan of Phil's either, but Michael and Kalen are right.  The decision to make it 2 shots was appropriate.
I know for a fact that Phil offered to withdraw, but was told that while it was his decision, the USGA believed their decision was correct.
I believe that the episode showed the character and intelligence of Phil--neither in a good light.  But, whether it was a close decision or not, it was decided by the ultimate authority and the public should accept it.
Let's move on to architecture issues.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #344 on: June 29, 2018, 01:06:24 PM »
Hard to believe this argument is still going on. I am not a fan of Phil, but I don't think he should have been DQ'd for this. I think he should have got exactly what he did get - a 2 stroke penalty. What he did is clearly covered by 14-5. If you think this is not something covered by 14-5, I'm curious what situation you think would be covered by 14-5.
Since there is only one decision on 14-5, and it has to do with a club breaking during the swing, and since all of the common ways that it might occur are listed as exceptions to 14-5, I don't know the answer to your question of what is covered by 14-5.
But none of that is interesting to me in the least.  Mickelson stopped the ball from going off the green; he chased it down, and he said that was what he was doing.  HOW he did that isn't interesting to me, either.
So I'll answer your question with a question:  If a fat 47 yr old chasing the ball to stop it from going off the green isn't a deflection, what is?
(All: I know what the USGA said, so no need to repeat it to me.  I think they made the decision that it suited them to make, and chose to ignore a serious breach of the Rules.  End of story...)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #345 on: June 29, 2018, 02:11:19 PM »

I recall watching an interview during the tournament where the head guy said the decision was both unanimous and took less than 2 minutes to discuss by the committee


Most of my bad decisions have been unanimous and made in less than two minutes.  My wife will confirm this.


Well I for one hope this thread continues, if only for a chance at another gem like this ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #346 on: June 29, 2018, 02:14:16 PM »

I recall watching an interview during the tournament where the head guy said the decision was both unanimous and took less than 2 minutes to discuss by the committee


Most of my bad decisions have been unanimous and made in less than two minutes.  My wife will confirm this.


Well I for one hope this thread continues, if only for a chance at another gem like this ;D


+1 for me as well.  AG, just hilarious!!!  ;D


At least reassure us that alcohol, sleep-deprivation, or 420 was involved!!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #347 on: June 29, 2018, 02:41:11 PM »
Lou,

sorry but even as a minor rules official you should realise/know that an act of deliberately breaking a rule is 'serious'. That you appear not to might actually back up my assertion about the USGA's credibility as a ruling body.

You asserted earlier that "Any deliberate breaking of a rule is a serious breach of the rules."  Can you point to me where in the rule book this is established?  Or are your comments above impugning my and the USGA's credibility an attempt at deflection because you can't. 

The rule book defines all the key words.  Words have meaning.   There are not too many ways to parse the word "Is" though I can understand the inclination to do so when things aren't going as you like.

Now, let's return to arguing about gca where there are no right or wrong answers.

BTW, I said I was a junior rules official, which does not mean a "minor" one.  In terms of the number of years I've been volunteering and the volume of events I have worked, I am fairly low on the totem pole.  That does not mean that I am uncomfortable making rulings in most situations that come up.  It does mean that when I have any doubts, I get on the radio and confer with the official in charge and anyone else who might pipe in.  I know one of the individuals involved in the PM consultation and he noted that it was a very easy, quick decision- no time to do the things A.G. asserts.  And I am pretty sure that David Fay, the TV personality, was not involved.

Jeff,

How can the rules be simplified when we're arguing ad nauseum about a situation that is so black and white?  Golf is a very complicated game.  People make the rules even more so.

As respected rules expert Barry Rhodes noted in the comments I pasted earlier, the 2019 rules simplification will not change the outcome in a similar situation.  I know the effort to modernize the rules was considerable and well-intended.  Though I like many of the changes, threads like this one make me think that it is a lost cause.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #348 on: June 29, 2018, 02:53:12 PM »
Lou,

sorry but even as a minor rules official you should realise/know that an act of deliberately breaking a rule is 'serious'. That you appear not to might actually back up my assertion about the USGA's credibility as a ruling body.


Jeff,

How can the rules be simplified when we're arguing ad nauseum about a situation that is so black and white?  Golf is a very complicated game.  People make the rules even more so.

As respected rules expert Barry Rhodes noted in the comments I pasted earlier, the 2019 rules simplification will not change the outcome in a similar situation.  I know the effort to modernize the rules was considerable and well-intended.  Though I like many of the changes, threads like this one make me think that it is a lost cause.


Lou,
I'm with you.
The rules don't need simplifying-they are well written in nearly all cases and attempts to simplify have only led to confusion.
Dropping from"any height"? really? knee height as a compromise?
adoption of local rules for lost ball and OB as laterals? We need a rule to allow a local rule?
The rules were fine before and yes they can be complicated, but nearly always logical.
Now they are in danger of being watered down and more confusing...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phil should be DQ!
« Reply #349 on: June 29, 2018, 03:29:32 PM »

Lou,


sorry about the use of 'minor' no disrespect was intended.


To go back to the subject, if deliberately and knowingly breaking a rule in order to gain an advantage is not a serious breach of said rule then what is? It clearly is.


Just to be clear about the ethics and ethos around the rules. Golf is one of the few games where in official competition players generally will be expected to follow the rules without any sort of supervision or control. This means that the entire integrity of the competitive game is based on the assumption the player is honest in his dealings with the rules. This goes to the extent that if there is a dispute between a player and his marker the committee will take the word of the player over that of the marker. The presumption of the player being honest in regards to the rules is paramount the integrity of competitive golf. Ergo, the entire basis for the rules is that players will follow them and that any breach will be accidental. Were that not the case then competitive club golf would be impossible as the cost of having a rules official with each group would make it too expensive.


Now I know you to be a thought and intelligent man so am somewhat perplexed that you do not see someone acting in a way to undermine the very basis the rules are built on and yet do not think this serious I am flabbergasted.


As for the USGA. There are many fine people involved in the organisation but the track record in regards to big decisions in recent years is not so great.