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archie_struthers

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How best to design greens
« on: June 08, 2018, 09:24:59 AM »





No matter how you slice it you can't have a great design without excellent greens . In fact the best of the best have greens that point them out. How would you combine the need for speed along with making them compelling from a shotmaking perspective?

JESII

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2018, 12:10:56 PM »
Go to the edge...

Sean_A

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2018, 12:22:24 PM »

No matter how you slice it you can't have a great design without excellent greens . In fact the best of the best have greens that point them out. How would you combine the need for speed along with making them compelling from a shotmaking perspective?

Front to back slope ;D

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Thomas Dai

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2018, 02:01:06 PM »

No matter how you slice it you can't have a great design without excellent greens . In fact the best of the best have greens that point them out. How would you combine the need for speed along with making them compelling from a shotmaking perspective?

In general terms I'd probably agree with this but there are exceptions. For example Royal County Down is pretty amazing from tee to green but I'm not sure the majority of it's greens could be considered excellent.
As to the second part, firmness would probably be helpful.
atb

Pete Lavallee

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2018, 02:11:04 PM »
Most of the best greens I've played are well integrated into their surroundings, draped upon the natural landforms they cover. Nature is the best green designer. As an example I just played a Sr. Match at the old Stardust GC in SD; it was probably a Billy Bell design originally and the greens just fit the landscape. When the City decided to put the trolley line through it the hired Ted Robinson to do a redesign; they did the in vouge rape and shape in the SD River Valley. The greens now are interesting but completely unmemorable because they bear no relation to the landscape. I was trying to remember them before the match and drew a blank. It's like they decided: we'll put green # 26 from the playbook on this hole and green # 42 on the next!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 04:14:28 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

archie_struthers

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2018, 06:32:11 AM »
 ;)


I can't believe it's almost twenty years since we built Twisted Dune here in bucolic South Jersey!  Lots of water under the bridge since then . The golf economy has changed but I' m feeling good about the future. There seems to be some stabilization and perhaps clubs can continue to differentiate their product to diversify their clientele . Time will tell.


As to greens It seems the best designers go bold . Thomas  Dai made a great point with Royal County Down being one of best courses in spite of the greens but I'm not so sure they don't fit the site . Having only played there once I'm not educated enough to tell if they are lacking . Thomas is surely right about the golf course being great !




If I ever did more my emphasis would be on making sure you built the approaches correctly and really tied them into the green proper . Would really work on that aspect. Nothing more fun than subtle false fronts and bewitching swales  and kick plates . Collection areas verboten , totally verboten ! Lol


As to the green itself , go bold or stay home ! Vary the back to front slopes , match the green size to the shot involved and par for the hole.  Build them so they drain easily , but don't make them sieves , which at first blush seems appropriate . A bit of a dirty mix isn't the worst idea either! 




Jon Wiggett

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2018, 08:30:48 AM »



No matter how you slice it you can't have a great design without excellent greens . In fact the best of the best have greens that point them out. How would you combine the need for speed along with making them compelling from a shotmaking perspective?


I think it is a combination of the demands the surrounds of the putting surface make on the approach shot through slopes, hollows and bumps as well as the odd bunker in combination with the internal contours of the putting surface. I don't think speed is necessary nor desirable in most cases as it leads to a dumbing down of the challenge. Clearly the playing professionals want fast greens as it makes it easier but it is a shame that so many golfers have bought into the sham.




Lou_Duran

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2018, 09:18:03 AM »
It seems the best designers go bold . Thomas  Dai made a great point with Royal County Down being one of best courses in spite of the greens but I'm not so sure they don't fit the site . Having only played there once I'm not educated enough to tell if they are lacking . Thomas is surely right about the golf course being great !

If I ever did more my emphasis would be on making sure you built the approaches correctly and really tied them into the green proper . Would really work on that aspect. Nothing more fun than subtle false fronts and bewitching swales  and kick plates . Collection areas verboten , totally verboten ! Lol

As to the green itself , go bold or stay home ! Vary the back to front slopes , match the green size to the shot involved and par for the hole.  Build them so they drain easily , but don't make them sieves , which at first blush seems appropriate . A bit of a dirty mix isn't the worst idea either!

I would say that you answered your own question very well, but for the "go bold or stay home" comment which probably can't be done well within the confines of your other principles (though for short and wide courses which some here like a lot, it is probably necessary to provide interest and challenge).

I've only played RCD once and it was in extreme wind.  If the greens weren't appropriate or sufficiently interesting for the site and long game requirements, I totally missed it.  As it was, the ball, once at rest on the greens, was moving all over the place; can't imagine what they would have been like if they had more slope and internal contouring.

Likewise, Bethpage- Black is sometimes criticized for its large greens which lack internal mounds and relies mostly on back to front slope and speed to challenge the short game.  I found the course to be a complete examination of all aspects of the game while being highly playable.

In contrast, Winged Foot-West was not only difficult off the tee and on the approaches, the sloped, tightly bunkered green complexes offered no relief.  Though I have never heard complaints about WF-W greens being too simple, my host offered to take me to the East course instead where most of his guest preferred playing.  After we got done playing, he did all he could not to say "I told you so".

A TX-based architect noted many years ago that greens should be designed (positioned, contoured and sized) in relation to the topography, predominant winds, and length of the hole.  A long, difficult par 4 often playing into a prevailing wind might offer a large green opened in the front with minor internal contouring.  A reachable par 5 might have either a small green with considerable movement, or a large complex with three or four greens-within-greens separated by swales or other mounds.  A short 3 might be good for a volcano green where it works with the surrounds, or one that puts a premium on placing the ball on a relatively small area.

And as important, the maintenance meld must highlight the architecture.  A colleague commented yesterday on a tight hole location requiring a shot that would just dribble onto the green to setup a good birdie opportunity.  He noted that at our home course, the ball would probably have hit the soft, damp front and stopped short.  Not-so-little details like properly draining and irrigating a course make a very lasting impression of the architecture (though it may not have a lot to do with it).

Lou_Duran

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2018, 09:27:23 AM »



No matter how you slice it you can't have a great design without excellent greens . In fact the best of the best have greens that point them out. How would you combine the need for speed along with making them compelling from a shotmaking perspective?


I think it is a combination of the demands the surrounds of the putting surface make on the approach shot through slopes, hollows and bumps as well as the odd bunker in combination with the internal contours of the putting surface. I don't think speed is necessary nor desirable in most cases as it leads to a dumbing down of the challenge. Clearly the playing professionals want fast greens as it makes it easier but it is a shame that so many golfers have bought into the sham.

Count me in with the shameful.  After 11 days on very slow greens, I am on my fifth putting grip (have not yet gone to the long putter or cross-handed) and losing hope of recovering.  Probably the longest bout of extremely poor putting I can recall.  So if fast = easier, ramp them up!  Golf for most of us is already much too difficult, though I can see why higher cuts, lower inputs, and less maintenance might be attractive for the operators.  Question: what is the customers' response and how does this affect the revenue side?  I think that most industry insiders in the U.S. would agree that the quality of the green conditions is probably #1 in the consumer's mind.  And there probably is a correlation between green speed and the perception of quality.

Tim Martin

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2018, 09:53:59 AM »



No matter how you slice it you can't have a great design without excellent greens . In fact the best of the best have greens that point them out. How would you combine the need for speed along with making them compelling from a shotmaking perspective?


I think it is a combination of the demands the surrounds of the putting surface make on the approach shot through slopes, hollows and bumps as well as the odd bunker in combination with the internal contours of the putting surface. I don't think speed is necessary nor desirable in most cases as it leads to a dumbing down of the challenge. Clearly the playing professionals want fast greens as it makes it easier but it is a shame that so many golfers have bought into the sham.

Count me in with the shameful.  After 11 days on very slow greens, I am on my fifth putting grip (have not yet gone to the long putter or cross-handed) and losing hope of recovering.  Probably the longest bout of extremely poor putting I can recall.  So if fast = easier, ramp them up!  Golf for most of us is already much too difficult, though I can see why higher cuts, lower inputs, and less maintenance might be attractive for the operators.  Question: what is the customers' response and how does this affect the revenue side?  I think that most industry insiders in the U.S. would agree that the quality of the green conditions is probably #1 in the consumer's mind.  And there probably is a correlation between green speed and the perception of quality.


Lou-I agree that there is a perception between green speed and quality. In my experience around metro NY it is a persistent problem that greens are maintained too fast for the amount of slope and contour. It isn’t everywhere but there are some glaring examples.

Peter Pallotta

Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2018, 10:41:31 AM »
Archie - I'm not so sure about the 'go bold or go home' idea. Sure, there are good greens that also *look like* good greens -- with obvious tilts-slopes-contours. (I've played several modern-day Doug Carrick designs that have this appealing 'golden-age lite' aesthetic.) But in terms of actual  challenge & interest, greens that don't look like all that much --from the fairway, maybe just one main tilt or slope to think about -- can very often surprise and comfound once you're on/putting them, especially if they've had 80 years to settle and change and develop all sorts of micro breaks. The greens at Lakeview -- a Herbert Strong designed municipal course near me that hosted the Canadian Open back then -- don't *look* and certainly  don't jump at you as a great set of greens; and they are without the kind of contours/slopes or boldness or drama that characterize the very photogenic greens of this 2nd golden age/golden age lite. But they are a very good and enjoyable-to-play-and-putt set of greens nonetheless. And, to reference another thread, I'd imagine they could be sped up to 13 and still be very playable, and with few 'bad pins' or impossible hole locations.
Peter

« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 10:46:44 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2018, 10:55:23 AM »
I agree with Peter. I certainly prefer bold to bland and goodness knows, I’ve designed some greens right on the edge in terms of contour... But bold is not a necessity. If everything was bold, we’d end up most courses going over the top which indeed is something I’m concerned about in modern design.

Tom_Doak

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2018, 11:46:41 AM »
I don't participate much in threads this general, because they seem designed to invite self-proclaimed good golfers to set rules for us designers.  (yawn)  I don't need parents making rules for me.


Archie even admits that when he looks around at his favorite courses, most of them have interesting green contours.  And Royal County Down's greens are not great, but they are also not flat.


Sure, if you make a course hard enough from tee to green, you'd be crazy to compound that with severe greens - because you'd offend the only players who could possibly enjoy it.  But most courses need to be relatively open from tee to green to get players around, and then you've got to have enough going on around the greens that the holes aren't boring.

archie_struthers

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2018, 02:38:46 PM »
 8)


I guess my take would be that bland and boring don’t cut it without exceptional speeds. Most places can’t afford to maintain them at warp speed or their players can’t handle them . Pace of play ?


🤔 that the greens many of us really enjoy , for instance the Banks course at Forsgate are pretty “bold” !


Some of Tom Doaks greens are on the edge for sure , I like this and even a little quirk thrown in . I’m not saying crazy rolly-Polly , but keep us thinking where not to hit it too!


If anything it’s a little self flagellation as I missed an opportunity to make the greens at Twisted Dune better . They are ok but 🤔










George Pazin

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2018, 02:41:09 PM »
To me, the hardest question to answer in life is simply, why?


Why are great greens great? What makes them different?


I haven't figured that out yet myself. I doubt I ever will. I'd like to read more of Tom's thoughts on this, as well as some of our more thoughtful, better traveled golfers on here,  but they rarely seem to go into the sort of detail I crave.


As an example, I'll of course go back to my favorite, Oakmont. On the face of it, the land at Oakmont doesn't seem any different from that of most other courses here in western PA. Yet there is only one Oakmont. Are the greens special? Yep, amazingly so. None other than Bill Coore once said to me of Oakmont, we can't build greens like that. Now, I suspect Bill was being a bit humble, but I think he was kind of on to something.


I just wish I knew what...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Joe Hancock

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2018, 03:11:04 PM »
No mention of instincts in the process. Sometimes you go with what your heart/ mind/ gut is telling you, regardless of how many “rules” you break.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Lou_Duran

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2018, 03:25:14 PM »
Tim-

I suspect that the courses you write about were built for the then prevailing maintenance practices and much slower speeds.  We came a bit later to the party in Texas and our greens here tend not have as much contour over small areas.  Additionally, I think most architects appreciated staying within the natural restrained topography common in this area.  Our upper tier  clubs tend to have greens with a bit more movement, and, at times, are presented in the 11'-13' range, which is probably excessive.  I think that the relevant range at most courses is 9'-10', and perhaps that is unintentionally overstated.  Personally, I prefer to read the break, feel the speed, and get the putt started on the line as opposed to thinking about whacking it hard enough to get it to the hole.

George-

I've never played Oakmont, but my impressions of the greens are that they are very large, perched with some runaway slopes near the edges, and ultra-fast (13'-14').  Do you think that the heralded history and reputation of the course might have a halo effect on the greens?  Or do the greens make the course what it is?  I wonder if my no-name home course had the same greens whether our members would be asking for even faster conditions (as is reported of Oakmont members for everyday play vs. US Open speeds).  My guess is that they would munity.

Mike_Young

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2018, 05:07:19 PM »
Greens are like people.  Some seem pretty straight and simple and will screw you up while others seem all out of place and are pretty  straight forward.  In my mind great greens just seem to have more of a "razor's edge" when it comes to various approaches than good greens.  But then again...interesting question..if you gave the basic SD a great green in poor shape he would not consider ti as great a a simple green in super condition...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2018, 05:17:10 PM »
I certainly don't believe a great course requires great greens...a throw - away quip if I ever heard one.


So much about the quality of a green is about the condition and circumstances which, if we are fortune, often change. I recall losing a great deal of interest in this sort of discussion when someone said Pennard's greens are average. I realized then that my ideas of interest and intrigue are mine and mine alone


Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Peter Pallotta

Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2018, 05:40:28 PM »
Slowly but inexorably, as if having stepped into quicksand, I'm being pulled into Arble's way of thinking:
i - greatness is overrated
ii - throw-a-way quips and tired cliches abound
iii - a golf course either has more than a few cracking good holes and is thus (for a fair price) worth playing, or it doesn't and so it isn't (at least not more than once, at any price)
iv) some architects provide the cracking good holes with regularity and others don't, and I can't tell you why or how -- and besides, that's their problem (and skill set) not mine
Ah, it's very refreshing being Arble-like: keeps life simpler and in perspective
I want to play Reigate Heath

archie_struthers

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2018, 07:39:41 PM »
 :'(




As to Oakmont  the grass there is some sort of super hybrid poa that has evolved over the years . I’ve never seen anything like it 🤔.  Those greens run like a deer and are tougher than a grizzly. Really amazing




Sean_A

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Re: How best to design greens New
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2018, 07:50:43 PM »

I want to play Reigate Heath

Pietro

I nearly played Reigate today! Went for Epsom instead, but more on that at a later time.

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 04:06:49 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2018, 11:22:35 PM »

I've asked a few supers lately - the regional agronomy kind who see a lot of courses - and they say the average green speed in America is still about 9.5, based on what they have seen.  Played a course today advertising 12, but they were no more than the 9.5 average (it has rained recently)


As to Mike Young's "Edge" contours, I still recall (and recommend) that for an existing course, you take members out and aske them which are their borderline pin positions, find the slope there, and then plan to be about 0.1% below those (or 10-20% of total slope to account for possible construction error.)


As hinted, the contours can be a bit greater than the 2-3% recommended by someone (not really sure where that came from, but is prevalent).  Can actually be up to 3.8% on fast greens using the old down slope reading + Side Slope reading should be less than 5.5.  Max on that comes out to an actual downhill slope of 3.88%.  The USGA/Jerry Lemons charts concur.


I don't have time to break it down here, but it is pretty easy to describe the process to design a good and functional green, and not hard to break that down into order of consideration and then a bit about what to do about it. 


The truly great greens are harder to define, because history and maintenance are part of the equation in most golfers minds.  Even in our minds as architecture buffs, cannot opinions and tastes change?  Yeah, random contours were great, but once when they become common rather than rare, won't we possibly start pining for the long flowing contours coming in from the green edge?


Is a flat green better when sandwiched in between two roller coasters?  Etc.  Discuss away.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Bausch

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2018, 07:23:05 AM »

If anything it’s a little self flagellation as I missed an opportunity to make the greens at Twisted Dune better . They are ok but

Some shoulder season photos of Twisted Dune:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/TwistedDune/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Ian Andrew

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Re: How best to design greens
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2018, 07:30:55 AM »
If you want bold greens, you need scale.


If you begin to think about the greens on the edge, they will be larger than you initially thought.


The exception to this is a small green with tremendous pitch and a fast firm surface.




Another common theme is less bunkering.


Bunkers limit the directions of the surface, tie-ins and the opportunity to have more than one plane. A bowl is great once in a while, 18 times doesn't make a great set of greens.
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas