ID Help on Golf Hole Photo, MacKenzie Connection - NOW WITH PHOTO!

[Neil_Crafter]

John, the item came from a UK collector but that doesn't mean it originated there of course. I think the feel of the photo looks more US to my eye, and a few others think the same.


Pete, you ask why is the bench seat on the hill behind the green? My guess is that it is there for people to sit on and take in the view. There also looks to be a bunker below the sign at the far right, likely there is another green there. And a tee possibly between that green and the main green. The incongruities are the incongruities I'm afraid, they are what the photograph captured and I can't really explain them.


Garland and John, the bunkers at both the Valley and Meadow Clubs were quite distinctive and different from the bunkers we see in this photo.

[Tony_Muldoon]

More questions
 
The photograph appears to be taken from a level below the green which has a huge drop on its false front. The Buildings to the left of the green appear to be on even higher ground? This all suggests they are not right on the coast as the fairway would not be that far beneath sea level?

As someone stated the flagpole does look very thick and the bench rather large? 
 
And amongst the ‘buildings’ there’s a sharp vertical triangle which is too uniformly thick to be a ships mast and fore or boom stay.  So what can it be?
 
Also there are 3 dark ‘blobs’ on the green – I assume they are just marks?

[Marty Bonnar]

Somewhat similar poles at St Charles Country Club:

[Kalen Braley]

Just noticed there is a white orb looking thing up in the sky.  Its either:


1)  Well timed photo that caught an approaching chip/pitch
2)  Weather ballon
3)  One of the earliest UFOs caught on camera   


Neil,


Which hole makes sense the most at this point?  Or have you ruled out all the suggestions so far?

[Kyle Casella]

I’m thoroughly confused, not only by the options now rejected, but also by the solid hint this must be NoAmerica.  Given that, I’m sent in search of sandy soil, but not Pasa, which has wonderful sandy soil.  Never having been blessed with a visit to the VC, I must default to Meadow Club....I’m thinking someplace on the perimeter of the course,...help me, please.....

The only hole at Meadow that is close to a road is 9. There is not a hill behind it (one of the clubhouse buildings) and the green isn't this close to the road (and I don't believe it ever was).


Claremont CC has several holes that abut a road. There is one in particular that this reminds me of but I can't remember the hole number. I don't think that site is sandy though.

[Josh Bills]

I have not been here, but Union League/Green Hills in Millbrae, CA there is a par 3 on the Western Edge that looks like it would potentially work.  I don't know terrain and if it is sandy, but just looking at it, seems it could work. 


Here is the aerial.


www.google.com/maps/place/Green+Hills+Dr,+Millbrae,+CA+94030/@37.600806,-122.4129025,315m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x808f770ab9ec9de3:0x9517572aaf2683ad!8m2!3d37.6045372!4d-122.4028968

[Peter Flory]

What is the basis for assuming a MacKenzie connection? 

[Neil_Crafter]

Kalen
That is a mark on the photo. No UFO sighting unfortunately! Similarly there is damage on the photo that shows up as marks on the putting green. So far none of the suggestions seem to fit the bill I'm afraid.


Marty, yes the poles at St Charles look similar but that course was described as "dead flat" by MacKenzie.


Tony, the poles and buildings seen at left do not appear to be ships masts and I agree that it is not a waterfront, given the land is dropping away at the bottom of the photograph.


Josh, I haven't been to Green Hills (Union League) either, but the bunkering doesn't look like the bunkering seen in period photos of Union League which was more sophisticated than the ones in this photo. This is why I'm leaning now towards this hole not being in California. All MacKenzie's courses there were built by the American Golf Course Construction Company and the bunkering is very sophisticated. This bunkering is a bit more rustic and simple.


Thanks all for your suggestions and comments thus far. The mystery continues.......

[Neil_Crafter]

What is the basis for assuming a MacKenzie connection?

Peter, thanks. As I have mentioned before a little earlier in this thread, the card on which the photograph is mounted bears the signature of Dr Mackenzie just below the photograph. Thus I am working on the assumption that it is a hole that Mackenzie designed as I don't believe he was in the habit of randomly signing photographs unrelated to him or his work.

[Peter Flory]

Ah, I missed that part.  Then probably an original design, not just a consulting gig or minor renovation. 


Does anyone have any technical knowledge of what the industrial complex may be in the background?  Since it is sandy soil, might that have something to do with it- i.e. concrete plant?  There is the little tower, the slanted roof, and the hanging pipe.


That green looks pretty amazing.  At first glance, it looks like a hollow in the front portion, but after zooming in, there is a lot of green between the bunker and the horizon to the bowl where the pin sits. 

[Tim Leahy]

Sharp Park lost some holes that may have looked like this and has walking trails with benches and a road. Anybody have an aerial of the original Sharp Park? 12th green pre-seawall original layout?

[Thomas Dai]

Try this one - Cerro/Chimont -  - https://earth.google.com/web/@-34.90028276,-56.2636539,19.068626a,172.99713807d,30.22592043y,41.25927954h,42.45414702t,-0r

??
atb

[Kalen Braley]

My memory is failing... but I can't think of one MacK course that is NLE in its entirety, (unlike partially like Sharp Park)


Perhaps its from one of them?

[JC Urbina]

Neil,


I have been consulting at St Charles on the Mackenzie course and I would say it's not flat.  Alister used a ravine on several holes.  It makes the routing flow in and around the drainage way, very clever!


But as someone noted, the St Charles  site is not as sandy as the photo you posted.

[Peter Flory]

My memory is failing... but I can't think of one MacK course that is NLE in its entirety, (unlike partially like Sharp Park)


Perhaps its from one of them?

Bayside Links in Queens.  It is now completely filled in with tight housing. 

[Rich Goodale]

My wild arsed guess is that this is the 3rd hole at Cork GC.  Right time frame (1927). Significantly large boat in the left background indicates deep water.  Possibly faux negative photo.

[Niall C]

Having given it a bit more thought I wonder if the assumption that this is a sandy site might be throwing us off the scent ? For instance the foreground in front of the near bunker looks as though it is sand showing through a sparse covering of grass but equally it might be hard baked clay. The "sandy" colour may be due to the colour wash used in the printing, aided by the grainy nature of the picture which makes it look more sandy.

The back drop to the green definitely looks sandy but then it also looks it was built as part of the green complex so may well be imported sand used to create the bunker complex ?

Niall

[Pete_Pittock]

It cannot be in the US, there are no rakes in the bunkers.


Do not think that is shore/coast/boats on the left side of the photo. That would put the foreground below sea level.

[Kalen Braley]

It cannot be in the US, there are no rakes in the bunkers.


Do not think that is shore/coast/boats on the left side of the photo. That would put the foreground below sea level.

Wait,   didn't the good doctor work in the Netherlands!! 


P.S.  If only we had the same fictional software like they have in movies/TV to zoom in on that sign all the way to the right.  It would be a huge clue!! 

[Neil_Crafter]

Sharp Park lost some holes that may have looked like this and has walking trails with benches and a road. Anybody have an aerial of the original Sharp Park? 12th green pre-seawall original layout?

Tim I do have a 1941 aerial of the course and yes there is a road left of the original 13th green. But as best I can tell there were never buildings at the left rear of the hole, and eventually replacement holes were built in the canyon beyond the 13th. So I'm not ruling it out as the bunkering in the aerial looks quite similar but I can't see trees behind the green.

[Neil_Crafter]

Neil,


I have been consulting at St Charles on the Mackenzie course and I would say it's not flat.  Alister used a ravine on several holes.  It makes the routing flow in and around the drainage way, very clever!


But as someone noted, the St Charles  site is not as sandy as the photo you posted.

Thanks Jim, good to see you on board at St Charles. That was not my description of the course as "dead flat" that was MacKenzie's from The Spirit of St Andrews. I haven't seen St Charles myself so good to hear that it isn't totally flat!

[Neil_Crafter]

Rich
I've taken a good look at the original and there definitely are no boats to be seen, so Cork might be ruled out.


Niall
It certainly looks like sand when looking at the original. Personally I've never seen baked clay look that white. The high ground immediately behind the green looks very natural to me and I can't see it having been created.


Kalen, yes we need CSI:MacKenzie to go to work on that sign!


Could this be a hole on the East Coast? MacKenzie possibly did some redesign work at Ardsley CC in NY in 1928-31 and also at St Andrews at Yonkers in 1932 where he and Wendell Miller managed to remodel one hole before MacKenzie was dismissed. I know that course was hilly, could it be there?
 

[Tim Leahy]

It cannot be in the US, there are no rakes in the bunkers.


Do not think that is shore/coast/boats on the left side of the photo. That would put the foreground below sea level.

Hence the need for a seawall at Sharp Park?

[Neil_Crafter]

Tim the ground along the coast at Sharp Park is relatively flat and was often inundated following storms. The coastal section has no landforms like the one in my photo to the best of my knowledge. You made the suggestion about the 12th, which is one of the inland holes, but I don't think its that or the 13th.

[Niall C]

Neil

There’s no doubt that the area in front of the near bunker appears to be a sandy colour but that was my point about the photo/postcard being tinted in slightly unnatural colours. The colours certainly don’t look 100% realistic to me.

Having grown up on a clay soil course, and back when we had proper summers  , I can confirm that hard baked clay can go a very light colour when bone dry. It’s also easy to imagine that that area might be a high footfall area particularly if the next tee was up to the right, which would readily account for the bare patches.

With regards to the banking at the back, I’m not suggesting that it was created as such. As we know, MacK was very adept at using mounds/banks as back drops for holes (eg. Pitreavie) but in using them he we would need to bench the green in to some extent and rework the contours of the bank. We also know he used back bunkers on his courses, at least in his early work (eg. Alwoodley) so that’s why I’m thinking that the bank behind the green has been extensively reworked to create rear bunkers and in doing so a heap of sand would have been used.

That said, I’m still of the view that it’s not in the UK for the reasons others have previously stated.

Niall