Wind direction and doglegs

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am on Kauai for a little beach and golf. The wind blows on Kauai--hard along the shore. I played a course here where the wind was against the dogleg on a few of the holes. On doglegs left the wind was out of the left. On doglegs right the wind was out of the right. It kept me off balance on those holes. I had never played a course where I noticed it as much. It was not an abnormal wind. It was the normal wind direction.


Have you seen this very much? I would assume the architect, RTJ jr did this on purpose.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,


Not sure how many architects consider it. I know I do, and favor dogleg rights when the prevailing wind (at least if strong and consistent) blows right.  If I can't get it, I comfort myself in knowing the wind doesn't always blow from the same direction, and a dogleg against the wind is one of "playing every shot in the bag" too.


It is hard to get every dogleg to blow with the wind in the typical routing.  When they don't, I try to craft features that allow a little more wiggle room, like wider fairway in the LZ to accept a counter dog leg shot pattern, containment, etc.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tommy -
a populist designer, working on a resort course: it wouldn't surprise me if it was intentional, i.e. a way to make it easier for the average golfer, whose attempted fade or draw around a dogleg can easily become a slice or a hook, by having the wind work against those tendencies/poor shots, while at the same time making it harder for the good golfer by asking for a pronounced fade/draw against the prevailing wind. 
Peter 

[Tom_Doak]

It was many years ago that Ben Crenshaw told me the wind should help you around a dogleg.  I'd never considered that before.


Of course, the topography and the prevailing winds do not always dovetail ... Cape Kidnappers, for one, has several doglegs where the wind is pushing you across the next finger of land.  (If we'd routed it the other way around, those holes would have been uphill and semi blind.)


Likewise, on a development project, the land planner doesn't care so much about the wind, and may stick houses where the wind wants you to go.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like what Ben said that the wind should help you around the dogleg. I do have to say, though, Having the wind blow the other way kept me on my toes. It just would be too difficult for a higher handicap player. I'm sure I would hear the "u" word. (unfair)

[Thomas Dai]

Wind ‘helping’ you around a dogleg - right handed slicer, right handed hooker, left handed slicer, left handed hooker, good enough player to work the ball with or against the wind?
And then there’s the nature of the ‘prevailing’ wind, which in some places is relatively consistant in general direction but in other parts of the world changes with the seasons or even changes during the course of a morning/afternoon/evening.
Just a few windy variables to throw into the mix.

Atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Thomas,


Yes, true. Here in TX, prevailing wind can be quite strong, and is out of south to south east in summer, but out of north in winter, but perhaps too cold to play. When off the gulf in winter, tends to be warmer and muggier, and rainier.  Thus, I tend to design for the south winds to the north.


Worst problems are greens set over water when Bermuda is dormant.  On a hole running north, these are downwind most of the time and the average am needs well over 100 feet depth of roll out space, especially in winter when the greens are dormant.  It's easier to watch out and eliminate those than wind reverse doglegs.....just don't do them since ponds are usually built, or leave the pond well forward of the green.

Even George Thomas wrote about design features being shaped with respect as to how the wind affects shots.  Can't recall any passages specifically on dog legs, but he specifically mentioned skinny, deep greens on downwind shots as the proper design response when the wind might simultaneously reduce both back spin and side spin, causing more roll out, but straighter shots, to account for the situation mentioned above.

I guess dog legs are the same way. If I end up with a reverse wind one, I remove trees and place carry bunkers on the high wind side of a reverse wind dogleg, effectively giving more room to negotiate, whereas dog legs with the wind can be narrower and more treed, at least in theory.  When considering the average golfer, nothing can be too narrow anyway!

Jim Colbert said the same thing as Crenshaw, only probably more animated.    Like Tom, before I knew him I never knew that was a "design thing."  After he suggested that, I noticed it in a lot of other work, notably many Ralph Plummer courses in my adopted home state of Texas.  So, good players (Plummer was one at one time, and worked with Byron Nelson, too) from the Snead/Hogan era, and well before the modern PGA Tour era figured that out, too.  It might have even been more important with the equipment in the old days.


When working with Colbert, we checked the dogleg status much more closely because he would try to get us to align every single one.  When working on our own, we did the same check, but said "Well, Jim has nothing to say about it" and the routings were a little less strict on that "rule."  As Tom alludes, housing developers prefer a lot of straighter holes for safety anyway, and the relationship to wind is far down the list as compared to maxing out golf course lots.


I believe most good players prefer that kind of alignment, based on....well, every one I have talked to.....And think about it, a course that requires "playing all the shots" should probably be shots where the design elements make you think you could execute 2/3 of the time or more.  And, setting up those shots requires getting all the "traffic signals" (Colbert's term, as in "If I saw both a green and red light when driving, what the heck am I supposed to think and do?")


So, wind right, target orientation right, lie sloping right (when applicable) sets up a shot.  Mixed signals and wide fairways or big greens simply allow players to hit whatever they want.  I guess that is a kind of strategy, but is it really? Seems better to me to strongly suggest a certain type of shot on nearly every hole that is likely to enhance your chance of success, with a wide variety of those suggested shot types over 18 holes to balance it out for different shot type players.


However, as Tom alludes, I will let you know if I ever get 18 holes to align perfectly...…

[Tom_Doak]

This thread illustrates why I prefer to have most holes running up and down the prevailing wind rather than crosswind.  It's much easier to handle the less common wind direction that way, as It often seems to be 180 degrees opposite to the normal one, at least in the windier places I've worked.


At Barnbougle the 7th hole was originally routed to play 90 degrees to the right of its location, but Mike Clayton and I agreed that a short par 3 would be impossible for most golfers in a left to right crosswind as strong as they have there.  It turned out to be a very good change 😀

[Sean_A]

I have never heard of design to use wind in aiding doglegs.  I guess it makes sense, but what does prevailing wind even mean?  It seems that in the UK we are getting more and more contrary winds.  It seems to me that its probably better to use shaping/features to "aid" golfers rather than rely on the unreliable wind.  Better yet, don't design many sharp leggers and the issue isn't a problem.  As Tom states, cross wind courses can be a bear....Portrush and Birkdale come to mind. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,


I just recently had to change an initial re-routing because the prevailing wind of  the hole was pushing shots out to the right against the dogleg.


In the end, I decided the original plan was going to too often present a potential safety issue so I made an alteration.


If the normal wind had been “aiding” the dogleg, I would likely have gone with the original plan.